t's Time for the Scientific Community to Admit We Were Wrong About COVID and It Cost Lives

[halfmanhalfbronco]

On 2/5/2023 at 10:30 AM, SharkTanked said:

Our government is not built to handle making wide-ranging social decisions in the immediacy of a disaster. The only time it is good at making snap decisions is in military engagement. 

Decisions had to be made before the science was adequately developed, and as the government was clamoring for answers and data from the scientific community, it is no wonder that certain studies and scientists were given preference in the immediacy of the moment. Mis-info and dis-info played a big role in screwing this up too since we were being led by someone who believed and promoted the dis/mis-info.

I think the government +++++ed some things up. I think we should have known as soon as there was a pandemic called that the government was going to +++++ some things up. I do not believe there was malicious intent in the +++++ up nor do I believe there was political intent in the +++++ up. Government is not nimble in policy making. That is the bottom line issue imo. There are times this is good and times when it is tragically bad.

All of this will be studied and debated, and new but similar mistakes will be made the next time.

Fair take.  And a really good point.

I DO think there was political behind some of the measures.  It became a teams and shit thing on both sides.  As we knew would happen, and the politicians did what politicians do, listen to what their constituency wanted.  Science be damned.  Look no further than the BS Idaho's LT governor did for it being done on the right's side when Gov Little was out of state.  Or Chicago keeping their schools closed so long for an example on the left.

[halfmanhalfbronco]

On 2/5/2023 at 10:30 AM, SharkTanked said:

Our government is not built to handle making wide-ranging social decisions in the immediacy of a disaster. The only time it is good at making snap decisions is in military engagement. 

Decisions had to be made before the science was adequately developed, and as the government was clamoring for answers and data from the scientific community, it is no wonder that certain studies and scientists were given preference in the immediacy of the moment. Mis-info and dis-info played a big role in screwing this up too since we were being led by someone who believed and promoted the dis/mis-info.

I think the government +++++ed some things up. I think we should have known as soon as there was a pandemic called that the government was going to +++++ some things up. I do not believe there was malicious intent in the +++++ up nor do I believe there was political intent in the +++++ up. Government is not nimble in policy making. That is the bottom line issue imo. There are times this is good and times when it is tragically bad.

All of this will be studied and debated, and new but similar mistakes will be made the next time.

Fair take.  And a really good point.

I DO think there was political behind some of the measures.  It became a teams and shit thing on both sides.  As we knew would happen, and the politicians did what politicians do, listen to what their constituency wanted.  Science be damned.  Look no further than the BS Idaho's LT governor did for it being done on the right's side when Gov Little was out of state.  Or Chicago keeping their schools closed so long for an example on the left.

[happycamper]

On 2/4/2023 at 1:51 PM, halfmanhalfbronco said:

Sounds like if you are looking for "The Science" Cato is as unbiased as any and likely far less biased than most.

the cato institute is a political thinktank. its raison d'etre is to be biased and it is about as scientific as vogue magazine. 

[happycamper]

 

On 2/4/2023 at 12:38 AM, halfmanhalfbronco said:

Common +++++ing sense?  lol.  No, happy here is the ACTUAL science.  Anybody kids or not, spending 8 hours a day in close proximity in an indoor setting 5 days a week with 15-40 others in the same tiny room will make cloth masking completely useless EVEN IF they were completely worn the right way.  The viral load exhaled from the nose and mouth, even if reduced say 80% will over the course of those hours infect everybody around them.  Period.  That.  Is.  The.  Science.  

Based on what, halfman? 

Your feelings are not "the science". you're just arguing to argue here. 

On 2/4/2023 at 12:38 AM, halfmanhalfbronco said:

 

Ok in redneck Idaho in 2020 in +++++ing Salmon River country with nobody around for 30 miles the out houses were nailed shut in 2020.  This was in Idaho in in June 2020.  When we had half a hundred published papers around the world showing that

OK? In August 2020 we were in North Cascades National Park with everything open (and free, because the park service wasn't allowed to accept cash at the time). 

do you think there's a single person making decisions for every bureaucratic body instantly or something?

On 2/4/2023 at 12:38 AM, halfmanhalfbronco said:

ty was absolutely not going to contribute to the spread of SARS-CoV-19.  Many counties and states kept beaches and parks and campgrounds closed until late fall of 2020.  That was not following the science.  Period dude.  

ok? so it took them a little while to make policy changes? how is political inertia "not following the science"? they made a policy change and reversed it after it was discovered it didn't help in a matter of months lol. that is following science. 

On 2/4/2023 at 12:38 AM, halfmanhalfbronco said:

No man.  After they were available for high risk teachers.  Ask any of the teachers on here.  They did not retire because of fear of COVID.  The mass retirement was due to not wanting to deal with remote teaching and how much harder it made their job.  Fear of COVID did not cause the teacher shortage...the COVID response did.

so.... for the full school year starting in august 2021 lol? cause vaccines weren't available for high risk individuals everywhere until mid march; which means no full vaccinations until mid april; and let me tell you the alpha variant blew donkey dick. it would make you unable to teach for a week... which directly led to school closures for how many teachers were unable to come to work. this happened halfman. 

so what wasn't "following the science"? opening up schools again... when they were opened up?

 

On 2/4/2023 at 12:38 AM, halfmanhalfbronco said:

By end of March/early April we had 3 peer reviewed papers showing how COVID was spreading.  That was the science.  The CDC under Fauci refused to recommend policy accordingly in the face of science.  The very paper came out in Febuary of 2020 that made an iron clad case that COVID spread through aerosol transmission.  It was as solid as solid can be...CDC eventually a 7 months later did a...you are right...on it.  The science was ALWAYS there.  The CDC and Fauci is not the God Emperor of Science.  Just because the CDC said a thing, DOES NOT MEAN THAT IS WHAT THE SCIENTIFIC COMMUNITY AGREED ON!!!!!  There was no agreement.  And those in disagreement were proven right but got no air time due to politics and Trump something.

so a single paper is "the science"? 

Who was in disagreement, halfman? furthermore, we had to wear masks starting in april. how was that not "following the science" of aerosol spread? we had direct instruction that n95 masks were for healthcare workers and that cloth masks were better than paper - specifically tight weave double layer masks. 

On 2/4/2023 at 12:38 AM, halfmanhalfbronco said:

The problem I have is the idea that that the Fauci lead CDC was  the end be all of science.  There were many whose credentials are at the top of their field calling BS on the whole response.  They were not given print. 

so you're ceding to Bob the idea that fauci is the leader of science instead of a guy with a huge job most of which was political? 

hmmm

On 2/4/2023 at 12:38 AM, halfmanhalfbronco said:

Even +++++ing Idaho did.  In April 2020 on the East Fork of the South Fork of the Salmon the outhouses were nailed shut....In IDAHO of all places....what the actual +++++ how is that following the science?!?!?!   There is nobody within 30 miles!!!!

again, this seems to be more "you are mad that there was a delay in policy decisions" than "not following science". it begins to feel like it is more "you are bitter at lost camping time in 2020 still" and less "care about following science". 

On 2/4/2023 at 12:38 AM, halfmanhalfbronco said:

You are missing the point.  There is no reason at all the local butcher needed to shut down.  None.  Zero.  No reason the antique shop needed to be shut down.  None. 

I mean, there's layers to this. first off, there was. you just stated that people in enclosed spaces spread the virus all the time. second off, in every state, agricultural work was deemed "essential". 

On 2/4/2023 at 12:38 AM, halfmanhalfbronco said:

Why were they not allowed to simply enforce the mask mandates that Walmart did to stay open?  It was non scientific bullshit.  Period.  When resteraunts were allowed to reopen we all know the mask rules were non-scientific shit 

because everyone knew masks weren't 100%. they aren't a condom, they're a bandaid. people have to be able to buy food. people don't have to be able to buy chintsy bullshit. especially for a little bit of time. the goal was the least amount of contact possible to prevent a massive surge of cases and deaths- ideally until vaccinations but barring that, without collapsing the healthcare system. 

On 2/4/2023 at 12:38 AM, halfmanhalfbronco said:

Except it really, really did.  The current estimate is that most of the population has had COVID with statistically significant portion not having symptoms.  We were all going to get it unless we took extraordinary measures.  That is what the RO showed.

in what? 3 years? ok? after everything opened up and vaccinated peopel more or less hrugged and said "Well it's basically the flu for me now"?

On 2/4/2023 at 12:38 AM, halfmanhalfbronco said:

If the point was to reduce transmission at all cost being "following the science" then there should be no differential between the local butcher and Walmart....but there was...that did not follow any science. That's basic.

again, ag businesses were typically regarded as essential

On 2/4/2023 at 12:38 AM, halfmanhalfbronco said:

Pretty +++++ing simple....most beaches closed were not crowded.  Nor were the swing sets.  But they were closed.  Shortly after 20-30 million went in mass protest packed together shouting and chanting, which scientifically means you are spewing any viral loud in your body at dozens of times the rate than not speak but wearing a mask.

you think beaches aren't crowded? what do you think beaches are for lol? and you think kids don't get way, way, way up in each others faces more than adults at protests?

halfman, you seem to be confused as to

1. being a hypocrite with regards to this

2. what things are constitutional and thus able to be curbed, science be damned

 

 

On 2/4/2023 at 1:14 AM, halfmanhalfbronco said:

 

The 5% reduction in transmission was based on one study looking at one community in India comparing it to another.  Outside that there is nothing to show a 5% reduction in the IFR/RO.  Taking that 5% figure and attributing it to k-6 schools is...well...retarded.  Apples to airplanes.  

which no one did lol. I just told aztec alien that his comparison of mask effectiveness to ecological damage was inane and then he gave me a study which made a comparison somewhat possible and also hilariously contrary to his original point. 

On 2/4/2023 at 1:14 AM, halfmanhalfbronco said:

There has been little to no evidence that cloth masking reduced transmission of SARS-CoV-2

Trying to make sense of the countless mask studies is a dauntless task.  

Fortunately, a number of scholars have integrated the findings of primary research studies into at least 31 systematic reviews and meta‐analyses. These generally confirm an absence of clear benefit and conclude that, if present, benefits are small to modest. For example, in a 2020 publication, Nishant Aggarwal et al. assessed 17 mask studies, concluding there was “no significant association between mask use and decrease in events of [influenza‐like illness].” Another meta‐analysis by Jingyi Xiao et al., supported by the WHO and available on the website of the U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, concluded that “evidence from RCTs of … face masks did not support a substantial effect on transmission of laboratory‐confirmed influenza.” Under direction from the White House Office of Science and Technology Policy, the National Academies of Sciences, Engineering, and Medicine considered the benefits of homemade fabric masks in the COVID-19 context, concluding that the “level of benefit, if any, is not possible to assess.”

https://www.cato.org/regulation/winter-2021/2022/how-effective-are-cloth-face-masks#meta-analyses

k? but the guy who i told "your point is dumb" to gave me one single study which made his point way, way, way dumber than I originally said

why wouldn't i use that gift dropped from the heavens? 

[SharkTanked]

On 2/5/2023 at 3:59 PM, halfmanhalfbronco said:

Fair take.  And a really good point.

I DO think there was political behind some of the measures.  It became a teams and shit thing on both sides.  As we knew would happen, and the politicians did what politicians do, listen to what their constituency wanted.  Science be damned.  Look no further than the BS Idaho's LT governor did for it being done on the right's side when Gov Little was out of state.  Or Chicago keeping their schools closed so long for an example on the left.

Yeah I think especially at the local level there were politics involved. I was speaking more broadly of the Fed/CDC/etc. response (I should have been clearer). I also think there is a lot of conflating what the Fed was doing/saying with how the locals ended up responding. 

[Spaztecs]

On 2/6/2023 at 8:31 AM, SharkTanked said:

Yeah I think especially at the local level there were politics involved. I was speaking more broadly of the Fed/CDC/etc. response (I should have been clearer). I also think there is a lot of conflating what the Fed was doing/saying with how the locals ended up responding. 

Trumps installment of Covid deniers into the CDC and NIH didn't help matters. 

[Bob]

Covid-crazy countries that embraced masking and vaccines are doing terrible. All countries "locked down". Only the wealthy ones  injected everyone with the mRNA. Weird, I say. WEIRD

 

[grandjean87]

On 2/6/2023 at 8:31 AM, SharkTanked said:

Yeah I think especially at the local level there were politics involved. I was speaking more broadly of the Fed/CDC/etc. response (I should have been clearer). I also think there is a lot of conflating what the Fed was doing/saying with how the locals ended up responding. 

Exactly.  When Idaho reopened from the initial Spring 2020 closures, there were a series of "reopening stages" and supposed metrics to guide.  It really didn't happen.  Bars reopened at the very start (it was a modified guide...lol).  Bars before schools. Smh.

To me, one big thing occurred and not unexpectedly in retrospect.  There was a huge conflation of physical science and social science in the national and local dialogue.  Much of what was called "science" was a lot murkier than presented.  Anything involving human behavior is going to be a bit messy.   That all added to the mistrust.   

I mean, respirator masks have solid efficacy in controlled settings.  The data on the vaccinated across time and many nations is undeniable.  That's not true for mandates of either because those public policies fall as much or more in the realm of social science.  Some of the smart folks I followed were up on that from early on.   Next time and going forward, I hope those voices get a bigger megaphone.  

[happycamper]

On 2/6/2023 at 11:40 AM, Bob said:

Covid-crazy countries that embraced masking and vaccines are doing terrible. All countries "locked down". Only the wealthy ones  injected everyone with the mRNA. Weird, I say. WEIRD

 

huh. it's like covid disproportionately kills old people, diabetics, and people with heart disease or something. weird

[Bob]

On 2/6/2023 at 11:11 AM, happycamper said:

huh. it's like covid disproportionately kills old people, diabetics, and people with heart disease or something. weird

Covid's not really a thing anymore, but keep making excuses as the mortality crisis get worse and worse and worse. If the vaccines "work" and if covid wiped out already the fat, weak and old, there should be NO excess mortality at this point. Should be negative excess mortality.  Your logic sucks.

[happycamper]

On 2/6/2023 at 1:33 PM, Bob said:

Covid's not really a thing anymore, but keep making excuses as the mortality crisis get worse and worse and worse. If the vaccines "work" and if covid wiped out already the fat, weak and old, there should be NO excess mortality at this point. Should be negative excess mortality.  Your logic sucks.

yes bob. yes! that is totally how it works. kill all the old people and then there are never any more old people ever. man why didn't anyone think of this earlier

 

[RSF]

On 2/6/2023 at 12:39 PM, happycamper said:

yes bob. yes! that is totally how it works. kill all the old people and then there are never any more old people ever. man why didn't anyone think of this earlier

 

Have you never seen Logan's Run?

[happycamper]

On 2/6/2023 at 1:58 PM, RSF said:

Have you never seen Logan's Run?

I mean no

but due to how often it is referenced I understand your joke and ya got me

 

[SharkTanked]

On 2/6/2023 at 10:58 AM, RSF said:

Have you never seen Logan's Run?

[Spaztecs]

On 2/6/2023 at 11:33 AM, Bob said:

Covid's not really a thing anymore, but keep making excuses as the mortality crisis get worse and worse and worse. If the vaccines "work" and if covid wiped out already the fat, weak and old, there should be NO excess mortality at this point. Should be negative excess mortality.  Your logic sucks.

 

As does yours.

Try again.

[Bob]

On 2/6/2023 at 11:39 AM, happycamper said:

yes bob. yes! that is totally how it works. kill all the old people and then there are never any more old people ever. man why didn't anyone think of this earlier

That actually is how it works, you moron. Look up dry tinder effect in populations. If many vulnerable, sick, unhealthy, old, etc. in a population die en masse in one year, then there will be fewer vulnerable to die in subsequent years and the rate of death will go down. It's not a hard concept. The exact opposite is happening now.

 

All countries locked down, only mRNA countries are getting hammered with excess mortality, even after many of the old, fat, sick died in previous years. The exact opposite is happening of what should be happening Might be that one experimental medication that they forced everyone to take. But you're so far into the grift that you'll admit you could have been duped.

[Spaztecs]

On 2/6/2023 at 1:32 PM, Bob said:

That actually is how it works, you moron. Look up dry tinder effect in populations. If many vulnerable, sick, unhealthy, old, etc. in a population die en masse in one year, then there will be fewer vulnerable to die in subsequent years and the rate of death will go down. It's not a hard concept. The exact opposite is happening now.

 

All countries locked down, only mRNA countries are getting hammered with excess mortality, even after many of the old, fat, sick died in previous years. The exact opposite is happening of what should be happening Might be that one experimental medication that they forced everyone to take. But you're so far into the grift that you'll admit you could have been duped.

So, this is the fault of vaccinations ?

[RSF]

A very early look at data from 2022 suggests that there were significantly fewer Covid-19 deaths in the third year of the pandemic than there were in the first two. More than 267,000 people died of Covid-19 in 2022, according to preliminary data from Johns Hopkins University, compared with more than 350,000 Covid-19 deaths in 2020 and more than 475,000 Covid-19 deaths in 2021.

This first look at the data is based on deaths reported by states through January 9. The final count will differ from this early data as states continue to review death certificates and refine their reporting, and it will be months before the US Centers for Disease Control and Prevention releases preliminary mortality data to compare to other causes of death.

 

Despite the lower death toll, however, Covid-19 will likely remain the third leading cause of death in the US in 2022 for the third year in a row.

[happycamper]

On 2/6/2023 at 3:32 PM, Bob said:

That actually is how it works, you moron. Look up dry tinder effect in populations. If many vulnerable, sick, unhealthy, old, etc. in a population die en masse in one year, then there will be fewer vulnerable to die in subsequent years and the rate of death will go down. It's not a hard concept. The exact opposite is happening now.

 

All countries locked down, only mRNA countries are getting hammered with excess mortality, even after many of the old, fat, sick died in previous years. The exact opposite is happening of what should be happening Might be that one experimental medication that they forced everyone to take. But you're so far into the grift that you'll admit you could have been duped.

yes bob. so true. in the us we had like 2 million excess deaths. and anyone and everyone will tell you - there were only 1 in 150 old, fat, sick people in the us. they're all gone. might go to my local walmart and scope out the populace to prove it later on. 

[toonkee]

On 2/6/2023 at 10:39 AM, happycamper said:

yes bob. yes! that is totally how it works. kill all the old people and then there are never any more old people ever. man why didn't anyone think of this earlier

 

If we evolved from monkeys, why are there still monkeys?