Big American Vulnerability exposed: Pinehurst, NC power outages

[East Coast Aztec]

On 12/7/2022 at 6:59 PM, madmartigan said:

It appears based on recent events like this and Texas we are woefully unprepared and there is little if any redundancy. 

There is typically none once you step down to substations for residential power.  You may get some at the substations outside a generating unit, but I would guess that is more a backfill for the generation plant itself.  

On 12/7/2022 at 5:57 PM, utenation said:

I also worry about water treatment plants.  The one by me is guarded by a couple of overweight part time security guards, a gate that’s always open with an unmanned checkpoint.  Regular fencing is all they have. 

A little fentanyl could go a long way on the downstream side of a water treatment plant.  

 

The issue will always be cost and most risk analysis will have it come out as overkill.

[SAMO]

while not sabotaging electricity or water treatment facilities...boggles my mind sometimes that some deranged +++++ hasn't ever done a ricin attack...im surprised that hasn't happened...shits easy to make...kills a shitload of people...and its not like castor bean sales are tracked...lol

 

 

[madmartigan]

On 12/7/2022 at 9:12 PM, SAMO said:

while not sabotaging electricity or water treatment facilities...boggles my mind sometimes that some deranged +++++ hasn't ever done a ricin attack...im surprised that hasn't happened...shits easy to make...kills a shitload of people...and its not like castor bean sales are tracked...lol

 

 

Sure Heisenberg 

[happycamper]

On 12/7/2022 at 8:04 PM, East Coast Aztec said:

There is typically none once you step down to substations for residential power.  You may get some at the substations outside a generating unit, but I would guess that is more a backfill for the generation plant itself.  

A little fentanyl could go a long way on the downstream side of a water treatment plant.  

 

The issue will always be cost and most risk analysis will have it come out as overkill.

hmm....

average water tower size... call it a million gallons... so 8 million pints of water... call it 16 million "drinks"

fentanyl deadly dose (ingestion)... 2 mg https://www.dea.gov/resources/facts-about-fentanyl

16 million * 2 mg = 32,000 grams.... 32 kilograms

that's roughly 1% of the total pharmaceutical production of fentanyl in 2005 https://www.emcdda.europa.eu/publications/drug-profiles/fentanyl_en

be tough to do. that's part of what is so nice about water supplies. the amount it would take to poison it boggles the mind. 

[sactowndog]

On 12/7/2022 at 5:47 PM, East Coast Aztec said:

Probably way too expensive for feasibility and if that requires multi-utility firms or jurisdictions, the agreements, pricing, O&M and capital project schedule would be an absolute nightmare unless a massive entity oversaw that, which would likely only be government, and I am not sure companies would want to do that.  They are already bounded by regs individually, I doubt they want more for what is relatively rare to justify the effort.  May be better to fortify the boundary like data centers  or power plants do.

I think with solid state battery, inverter’s that convert DC power to AC power, I don’t think it will be expensive at all.   I think it will be the standard in the southwest 

[bsu_alum9]

 

[utenation]

On 12/7/2022 at 9:55 PM, happycamper said:

hmm....

average water tower size... call it a million gallons... so 8 million pints of water... call it 16 million "drinks"

fentanyl deadly dose (ingestion)... 2 mg https://www.dea.gov/resources/facts-about-fentanyl

16 million * 2 mg = 32,000 grams.... 32 kilograms

that's roughly 1% of the total pharmaceutical production of fentanyl in 2005 https://www.emcdda.europa.eu/publications/drug-profiles/fentanyl_en

be tough to do. that's part of what is so nice about water supplies. the amount it would take to poison it boggles the mind. 

So let’s take fentanyl out of the scenarios. 

It looks like there are plenty of holes in our systems and opportunities to cause major damage. 
 

https://www.orlandoweekly.com/news/a-recent-cyberbreach-proves-that-floridas-drinking-water-is-surprisingly-easy-to-poison-29018593

[East Coast Aztec]

On 12/7/2022 at 9:03 PM, sactowndog said:

I think with solid state battery, inverter’s that convert DC power to AC power, I don’t think it will be expensive at all.   I think it will be the standard in the southwest 

To distribute that much power for a long time?  That would likely be very expensive. Plus, what is the initial procurement cost, and then what is the kw/hr rate to recoup that going to be?  

 

On 12/7/2022 at 8:55 PM, happycamper said:

hmm....

average water tower size... call it a million gallons... so 8 million pints of water... call it 16 million "drinks"

fentanyl deadly dose (ingestion)... 2 mg https://www.dea.gov/resources/facts-about-fentanyl

16 million * 2 mg = 32,000 grams.... 32 kilograms

that's roughly 1% of the total pharmaceutical production of fentanyl in 2005 https://www.emcdda.europa.eu/publications/drug-profiles/fentanyl_en

be tough to do. that's part of what is so nice about water supplies. the amount it would take to poison it boggles the mind. 

You and your numbers.  Now what am I gonna do with all this tinfoil?  

[retrofade]

On 12/7/2022 at 9:59 PM, madmartigan said:

It appears based on recent events like this and Texas we are woefully unprepared and there is little if any redundancy. 

Texas is a completely other story, as they've effectively cut their grid off from the rest of the country.

[GoDogs22]

Guess it's a good thing that a huge infrastructure bill was passed last year then.

 

This was 100% caused by right-wing terrorists and their anti-gay hysteria. The posts that have been circulating online make them seem proud of what they did. Hope the jail term is worth it, since I'm pretty sure that rises to the level of a federal offense

[Old_SD_Dude]

On 12/7/2022 at 8:55 PM, happycamper said:

hmm....

average water tower size... call it a million gallons... so 8 million pints of water... call it 16 million "drinks"

fentanyl deadly dose (ingestion)... 2 mg https://www.dea.gov/resources/facts-about-fentanyl

16 million * 2 mg = 32,000 grams.... 32 kilograms

that's roughly 1% of the total pharmaceutical production of fentanyl in 2005 https://www.emcdda.europa.eu/publications/drug-profiles/fentanyl_en

be tough to do. that's part of what is so nice about water supplies. the amount it would take to poison it boggles the mind. 

That’s why water engineers say “the secret to pollution is dilution.”

[happycamper]

On 12/8/2022 at 12:38 AM, East Coast Aztec said:

 

 

You and your numbers.  Now what am I gonna do with all this tinfoil?  

I'm always curious as to where the numbers lead and between my job, my education, and the supernerd extracurriculars I did in high school I can crunch the numbers quick and can get relevant information pretty quickly too. 

there are so many questions that can't be approached with math so when you can do so it is satisfying to actually get an answer for once. I didn't know what I was going to find out with the fentanyl thing; if the numbers had agreed with you I would have posted that too. 

[Spaztecs]

On 12/8/2022 at 8:47 AM, GoDogs22 said:

Guess it's a good thing that a huge infrastructure bill was passed last year then.

 

This was 100% caused by right-wing terrorists and their anti-gay hysteria. The posts that have been circulating online make them seem proud of what they did. Hope the jail term is worth it, since I'm pretty sure that rises to the level of a federal offense

The problem with being convicted of Federal Offenses is you end up in Club Fed.

Terrorists who attempt to take down the grid need to do time in the worst private facility in America.

[Spaztecs]

On 12/8/2022 at 9:35 AM, Old_SD_Dude said:

That’s why water engineers say “the secret to pollution is dilution.”

I thought it was " the solution to pollution is dilution."

 

[retrofade]

On 12/8/2022 at 12:38 AM, East Coast Aztec said:

To distribute that much power for a long time?  That would likely be very expensive. Plus, what is the initial procurement cost, and then what is the kw/hr rate to recoup that going to be?  

 

You and your numbers.  Now what am I gonna do with all this tinfoil?  

It'd technically be kWh, and not kw/hr, as the latter references kilowatts used per hour, while the former is a unit of measure. kW is another one encountered, and that refers to the demand (or work) necessary to bring enough power to your home to accomplish the appliances that you may be using at any given time.

Some utility companies (more often now) charge a max demand rate, which measures your demand usage over the highest 15 minute increment that the meter experienced during that billing cycle. If you spread out your appliance usage over a longer amount of time, you're going to be putting less demand on the grid itself.

An example of the above would be my kids come home from school, and they immediately turn the television on along with nearly every light we own, then they empty/load the dishwasher and start it running again. Then maybe they go upstairs and get a load of laundry going. That's a ton of demand in a very short period of time, which is going to more than likely raise people's rate due to demand. There's also other stuff such as peak usage and 15 minute increments, which aren't truly a measure of demand on the grid to get enough power to your house, but rather than kWh that you're using. A lot of utilities charge higher "demand" rates at certain times of day in order to try and bring demand down during those important hours. 

The initial procurement cost is an interesting question. In places like here in NC, almost all of the power comes from Duke's power plants along with the nuclear reactors that they co-own with the public power conglomerate that provides electricity to most co-ops and municipal utilities. I don't know about how things work in other states very well though. 

[renoskier]

On 12/8/2022 at 9:46 AM, retrofade said:

...then they empty/load the dishwasher and start it running again. Then maybe they go upstairs and get a load of laundry going.  

GTFOH!!

Are you complaining about this...where did you find these kids that load/empty dishwashers and do laundry? 

[RSF]

On 12/8/2022 at 11:46 AM, retrofade said:

 

An example of the above would be my kids come home from school, and they immediately turn the television on along with nearly every light we own, then they empty/load the dishwasher and start it running again. Then maybe they go upstairs and get a load of laundry going. That's a ton of demand in a very short period of time, which is going to more than likely raise people's rate due to demand. There's also other stuff such as peak usage and 15 minute increments, which aren't truly a measure of demand on the grid to get enough power to your house, but rather than kWh that you're using. A lot of utilities charge higher "demand" rates at certain times of day in order to try and bring demand down during those important hours. 

 

You're breaking my heart....

[retrofade]

On 12/8/2022 at 12:58 PM, renoskier said:

GTFOH!!

Are you complaining about this...where did you find these kids that load/empty dishwashers and do laundry? 

Don't get me wrong, we have to fight them almost every step of the way. I'm also definitely complaining either... but if they don't do all of their chores, then they have their allowance taken away. 

I was just trying to come up with a scenario that would likely result in larger demand. 

[renoskier]

On 12/8/2022 at 10:12 AM, retrofade said:

Don't get me wrong, we have to fight them almost every step of the way. I'm also definitely complaining either... but if they don't do all of their chores, then they have their allowance taken away. 

I was just trying to come up with a scenario that would likely result in larger demand. 

actually, my 15 year old boy often does his own laundry without being asked...he's just as bad as I am when it comes to folding and putting it away 

and I'm OCD when it comes to the dishwasher, wouldn't mind if they unloaded it but I usually end up having to reload it anytime someone else thinks they're helping

[East Coast Aztec]

On 12/8/2022 at 9:46 AM, retrofade said:

It'd technically be kWh, and not kw/hr, as the latter references kilowatts used per hour, while the former is a unit of measure. kW is another one encountered, and that refers to the demand (or work) necessary to bring enough power to your home to accomplish the appliances that you may be using at any given time.

Some utility companies (more often now) charge a max demand rate, which measures your demand usage over the highest 15 minute increment that the meter experienced during that billing cycle. If you spread out your appliance usage over a longer amount of time, you're going to be putting less demand on the grid itself.

An example of the above would be my kids come home from school, and they immediately turn the television on along with nearly every light we own, then they empty/load the dishwasher and start it running again. Then maybe they go upstairs and get a load of laundry going. That's a ton of demand in a very short period of time, which is going to more than likely raise people's rate due to demand. There's also other stuff such as peak usage and 15 minute increments, which aren't truly a measure of demand on the grid to get enough power to your house, but rather than kWh that you're using. A lot of utilities charge higher "demand" rates at certain times of day in order to try and bring demand down during those important hours. 

The initial procurement cost is an interesting question. In places like here in NC, almost all of the power comes from Duke's power plants along with the nuclear reactors that they co-own with the public power conglomerate that provides electricity to most co-ops and municipal utilities. I don't know about how things work in other states very well though. 

Not even factoring peak demand, if the system goes down, a replicable system or an overlapping system for emergency operations in the event of an attack to keep residential power going is going to be expensive for a company to do, and spreading it across potentially multiple power companies would be a nightmare to figure out logistics, responsibilities, maintenance schedules, and of course, costs (which will always be passed down to the end user).  So to the original point, I just don't see this passing an analysis to install this as a standard process.