smltwnrckr

By the way, I'm not arguing that all Trump voters, Trump supporters, Republicans and conservatives are racist. I'm arguing that Trump is racist, and that is becoming increasingly clear, and that his election has put the GOP and conservatives in a bit of a bind ideologically. I have some sympathy for the people on this board who hate Trump but still think the Democrats are worse. I don't necessarily agree, but I don't think that many of you are acting in bad faith. But people have gotten testy for years when race comes up in these conversations, and at a certain point it can't be ignored.

So you have faith that our institutions will protect us from a dynamic that is clearly part of the fabric of this country's history and played a role in its foundational structure, but not from a dynamic that never really was able to get a foothold for various reasons? And as long as Steven Miller is around, it's not just tweets.

Sure, it's clearly defined. The charge of racism is that Trump wants to limit immigration because the people coming to this country are not white enough to his liking. It's a pretty clear, straightforward charge. It's one that has been levied at conservative immigration restrictionists long before Trump came around and instituted their desires through executive power. It's a dynamic that has existed in immigration debates in this country going back to its founding. Brown people, not the right kind of American. White people, the right kind of American. All other arguments (crime, welfare, jobs, love of America) are put in place to service that fundamental idea. That is the 411 on what people say the Trumpian approach to immigration represents. I'm not making the argument. I'm just explaining it, and pointing out that reasonable people used to be able to make reasonable arguments against that charge. That's getting to be a harder and harder thing to do If the architects of the policies publicly betray their own racist inclinations.

Hey man, I know and believe your frustrations. I'm not calling you a Trump supporter, even. And I was really trying to echo the sentiments you already stated about voting for a third party. You're probably more tied up about a lot of this than many on the left are. But here we are. Seems pretty clear that the country is going to have to make a decision between what is worse - racism or socialism. It is what it is. I'm not sure what the right is supposed to do about it. But they are the ones who are going to have to deal with this mess in one way or another.

OK...

You use Obama as an example of how Trump isn't racist, but then say you don't want to turn this into a tit-for-tat discussion about whether anything Obama actually said comes close to what Trump is saying or doing. I don't want to have that conversation either, but I think it's weird to say the first then the other. The fact is that he just tweeted something that is overtly racist, and no one with any power on the right seems to care. A lot of people are tacitly defending him by pointing out how bad the Democrats are. So when people on the left say Trump is a racist, and his supporters are all racist, while I don't necessarily agree universally, what am I supposed to say to counter that argument?

To your first point - that may be the case, but as I stated before, elections have consequences. People got their wish - they put the craziest mother-effer in the room into the oval office. Now they get to stay on this roller coaster ride, with their hands in the air, or they get to tell the carny at the lever that they'd like to get off now. As for personal responsibility, I agree. And that responsibility includes taking responsibility for their own voting decisions. I see a lot of people, even those who don't like Trump but dislike the Democrats even more, skirting their own personal responsibility for what we are seeing right now. I actually don't blame Trump for most of this. In the words of Chris Rock, "That Tiger didn't go crazy! That tiger went tiger!" I blame the people who continue to either support him or continue to let him go Tiger in hopes that this whole mess will pass by with minimal foundation damage. But when people look at their ballots, they are ultimately asking themselves - does this person represent my values and will this person best carry those values with them as they legislate and/or govern? At the end of the day, those who vote for Trump are ultimately saying that is the guy who does that the best. This is the guy who best represents my values. So, if Trump does win a second term, I hope at the very least the people who have been shrugging their shoulders and skirting their own responsibility over the election of Trump and the embrace of Trumpism by the GOP will finally take responsibility for all of this. Then we can have the actual conversations we probably should be having right now as a country.

I was one of the people who at least partially bought in (and continue to do so) to the narrative that the Trump phenomenon is a reaction to left-wing identity politics. But I have to say, it's hard to argue right now for what you are saying - that the Trump presidency isn't a culmination of deep-seeded racism seething under the surface in the rural and conservative parts of this country. I'm not saying it's the case, but it's pretty hard to argue against it. Most of those arguments are like yours - just words, without any real evidence. The people who argue that this is, and always has been, a logical result of right-wing racism have an increasing heap of evidence to back their argument. Just sayin'

The other side of that argument is that there were wolves stalking in the distance all along.

I was responding to the inquiry about how we, as a voting populace, and more importantly as conservatives (assumed, as lawlor posted it), put a stop to the speech acts of a racist president. The answer to that question is to not vote for him. That is the place that conservatives are in, right now. And it's a place they put themselves in by voting for the dude, who everyone has known is a racist scumbag for years and years, because it's fun to own the libs. The more they continue to put the responsibility on the Democrats to make them vote for someone who is not a racist, the more they delay an ideological and political reckoning. It's interesting how much Trump supporters and Trump apologists like to talk about how elections have consequences. You know, because Obama said it and they got all mad about it when he said it. So now that the libs are mad, the right gets to say it. In your face!! Problem is, elections do have consequences and conservatives are seeing them now as well. The GOP through the primary process knowingly chose a petulant, sexist, racist man child to lead their party in the general election. In order to do so, they had to betray the ideological principles on which they claimed their party was build, as well as occasionally betray general principles of public decency and morality. Whether they did that to win, or they won in spite of that, is an unanswerable question. But they are now facing the consequences of that election - either continue supporting this guy or or allow your longstanding political and ideological enemies to take the reins of power and pick the scraps off of your faction's political corpse. Elections do have consequences, and that is a consequence that some of us (who would have supported a GOP candidate who actually cared about liberty and the constitution against Hilary) predicted. Imagine where we would be right now if the GOP would have run a reasonable, principled candidate against Hilary - someone who actually cared about the principles that the GOP claimed were most important. Let's say they had lost that election despite having rallied around those principles. The GOP would almost certainly still have the house, would have made gains in 2018. They'd still have the Senate. And right now, they would be able to run someone who represents those supposed principles against a universally unlikable woman who had won despite being the least-liked presidential candidate in history. They'd have a shot to usher in 8 years of a GOP president (new blood) buttressed by a clear set of principles and strategies and by the predictable fatigue over 12 years of a Democrat presidency. And that's not even looking at where they would be had they won the election with said reasonable person.

Refuse to vote for him and actively encourage others to do the same. Tacit support is still support. Fact is, it seems the right has a choice to make - support a stone-cold racist for judges and teams and shit, or face whatever nightmare they believe will come to pass if the Democrats are elected. One of the most endearing things about the last wave of conservatism in the GOP was its embrace of Goldwater's loss as a significant moment for the movement. Whether it was actually the case, or if it is some retroactive identity construction, that story was meant to say something about conservatives - that principles mattered most, and even a political loss at one point or another could turn into long-term success if that loss helped a group identify and organize around what really matters. The GOP seems to be in the absolute opposite place now. Winning in lieu of principles, instead of principles in lieu of winning. I mean, unless those principles actually are...

I was on sick kid duty. Watching a zombie movie knowing he was gonna wake up covered in his own vomit at any moment. What was your excuse? Besides taking another opportunity to show us all the depths of your toxic obsession with SJSU football. Which is weird, dude. It's weird.

Dude, you're such a winner.

Anyone trolling an internet message board on a Saturday night in July shouldn't be LOL'ing other people.

LOL. Keep it up with the silly pants guy. Cuz I'm gay, or something. But there is an underlying fact that seems to be presenting itself here. You and your bestie troll a message board on Saturday nights. Cool. Good for you.