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CowboyFriar

Should UNC get the death penalty?

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  1. 1. Should North Carolina get NCAA death penalty?



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Haha!

The AAUP is more worried about the academic freedom rights of professors that allow them to run sham courses like this.

How surprising a BYU* fan takes issue with the AAUP...

 

http://www.aaup.org/report/academic-freedom-and-tenure-brigham-young-university

 

http://www.aaup.org/our-programs/academic-freedom/censure-list

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If UNC's coaches/athletic director/university administrators knew about this and actively steered athletes into these classes, and the fraud was only discovered after an outside whistleblower after UNC tried to cover it, I would say that the death penalty should be on the table at the bare minimum. But neither of those conditions were true in this case. There is some evidence that UNC's coaches had reason to believe that fraud was occurring and looked the other way, but so far it looks like the only people who knew that fraud was occurring and steered students to these classes were low-level staff in the athletic advising center. That's a far cry from Penn State, where the coach, athletic director, and university president all actively conspired to protect a pedophile. Also, UNC discovered this fraud during an internal investigation, fired everyone involved, and self-reported everything that happened to the NCAA. In my opinion that shows that at least the university's leadership wants to play by the rules. If you drop a nuclear bomb on a program that self-reports problems, all you accomplish is discouraging other schools from coming clean when this type of irregularity is discovered. I think some additional sanctions are justifiable, but the death penalty is far too harsh of a punishment.

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It's still the definition of lack of institutional control.  It's not bad like what Penn State was doing, but it's academic fraud, and that's bad in it's own right.  That means you have players who know about it, teachers who know what they're doing, so I don't see how anyone can argue the coaches don't know what's going on.

Image result for jim mcmahon with lavell edwardsImage result for byu logoImage result for byu boise state end zone hail maryc07489bb8bb7f5bad3672877f8b04f34.jpg

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What happened at Penn State was criminal and should have been handled in criminal court and by the University.  The NCAA should not have been involved

 

The UNC situation is about athletic cheating.  It should be handled harshly by the NCAA.  The athletic "Death Penalty" may be appropriate in this case.

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I'm sure the vaunted Tar Heels will disavow all the basketball championships they won using players who benefitted from these sham classes. It's the Carolina Way.

Not!

I see what you did there, but I know Dr. Bell, and I highly doubt he would have anything to do with what was going on there. Kenan-Flagler's a great business school, and it's sad to think its reputation has been compromised by people with misaligned priorities...

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What happened at Penn State was criminal and should have been handled in criminal court and by the University.  The NCAA should not have been involved

 

 It was sort of handled criminally...well, until the DA who was about to drop the hammer suddenly disappeared (murdered) and his hard drive was found floating in a river.  Nothing fishy there at all.  Then magically after that, it all got swept under the rug.

 

No doubt most of the admin there should be in prison.  The AD.  The President.  Various admin and staff.  NCAA cannot take care of things on this end.  That said, it is under the NCAA jurisdiction as to allow a partner institution to continue being a member.  Maybe they didn't break specific rules the NCAA has jurisdiction over i.e. academic fraud at UNC, but they did clearly engage in criminal activity and thus, the NCAA has the power to deny their memberhsip.  There  will NEVER be anything that comes close to what the lunatics at Happy Valley seem to want to look away from and move on from.  Honestly, I can't believe the Big10 allowed them to stay and did not vote them out.  I can't believe anyone outside of conference would schedule them for an OOC game.  If the NCAA didn't have the balls, the other partners should have frozen them out.  The NCAA should have revoked their membership and no longer allowed them to be a partner.  Just like the NBA did to Sterling.  Death Penalty for ALL PSU athletics was what should have happened.  End of story.

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The only way to get the death penalty is repeat violations of the same offenses.  I don't know what North Carolina's record is in this regard.  I know they had problems under Butch Davis, but I doubt this is even death penalty eligible.

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It's still the definition of lack of institutional control.  It's not bad like what Penn State was doing, but it's academic fraud, and that's bad in it's own right.  That means you have players who know about it, teachers who know what they're doing, so I don't see how anyone can argue the coaches don't know what's going on.

 

Wainstein interviewed dozens of players over two decades and none of them would go on record as saying that their coaches knew about the fraudulent classes. (Rashad McCants claimed that Roy Williams knew about it on ESPN, but he refused to talk to Wainstein.) I think the coaches had to know that something fishy was going on and looked the other way, but so far there is no indication that they were deliberately steering players into fraudulent courses. So far the only people who were definitely steering athletes into these courses were low-level staffers in the athletic support office. Well, and the former president of the faculty senate, which is pretty embarrassing, but still not the same as coaches/athletic directors doing it.

 

To be clear, I have gone on record as saying sanctions are justified. But this is very different from SMU and Penn State. At SMU both the university president and the athletic director were involved in the scheme to pay players using funds from boosters and participated in the coverup. At Penn State the coach, athletic director, and university president protected a pedophile, lied about it, and were only discovered after they were caught in an outside criminal investigation. At UNC, the fraudulent courses were uncovered during an internal review, and UNC spent a large sum of money to investigate themselves, fired everyone who was involved, and then self-reported everything that happened to the NCAA. I think there is a huge difference between a university president being involved in wrongdoing and covering it up than a university that self-reports violations that occurred when one professor retired on the job and let his secretary do his grading without anyone in the university administration knowing what was happening. Is it sanction-worthy? Yes, in my opinion. Is it worthy of the death penalty? Not even close. If you drop the death penalty on a school that self-reports violations, all you do is encourage schools to cover up wrongdoing in the future. My guess is that the worst-case scenario is that UNC is required to vacate all its wins in the past couple decades (including the two basketball titles), but I doubt it will even come to that. The recent precedent is that if you self-report violations and cooperate with the investigation, usually the sanctions are fairly limited.

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Why get on UNC's case for this?

Yewtah doesn't even know the SAT/ACT scores of its athletes, or how many were "specially admitted."

UNC needs to work more on "plausible deniability."

University of Utah

Utah denied our request, saying it doesn’t have records that show the SAT or ACT scores of athletes, or the number of specially admitted athletes. Under the law in Utah, the university is not required to compile a record that doesn’t already exist. Our request regarding the number of reading specialists who work with student athletes was denied as well. CNN is working on getting other data, like aptitude test scores, that may show the reading levels of athletes at Utah.

http://www.cnn.com/interactive/2014/01/us/college-scores/index.html

You are so sad.
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SMU was given the death penalty because of repeated violations and they never tried to change anything while getting caught again doing the same thing. NCAA has said for years they didn't know the true affect of the penalty until they gave it to SMU and saw how long it took them to get up off the floor so they are really really really against using that against any school..

 

However NCAA has also said that coaches should know what their players are up to and if coaches knew something was up but decided not to follow up on that, that is as bad as knowing what was going on and OK'ing it. 

 

North Carolina won't be getting the death penalty, and have done some stuff internally however it also comes down to were they playing ineligible players and if they were those are going to be severe sanctions there.

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No death penalty. Unless they do this again next year. Anyone from the athletic department needs a show-cause attached to their name. The school should be put on a 60-65 scholarship limit for the next 5 years. This years freshman & Sophmore class should be allowed to transfer out. UNC home games placed on a 1-2 year tv ban.

No bowl bans or vacating wins please. Gayest punishments ever.

2005, 2009, 2010 & 2011 MWC Football Champions

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What happened at Penn State was criminal and should have been handled in criminal court and by the University. The NCAA should not have been involved

The UNC situation is about athletic cheating. It should be handled harshly by the NCAA. The athletic "Death Penalty" may be appropriate in this case.

Hence why the ncaa ended up walking back all it's stupid PSU sanctions after the lynch mobs dispersed.

2005, 2009, 2010 & 2011 MWC Football Champions

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It was sort of handled criminally...well, until the DA who was about to drop the hammer suddenly disappeared (murdered) and his hard drive was found floating in a river. Nothing fishy there at all. Then magically after that, it all got swept under the rug.

No doubt most of the admin there should be in prison. The AD. The President. Various admin and staff. NCAA cannot take care of things on this end. That said, it is under the NCAA jurisdiction as to allow a partner institution to continue being a member. Maybe they didn't break specific rules the NCAA has jurisdiction over i.e. academic fraud at UNC, but they did clearly engage in criminal activity and thus, the NCAA has the power to deny their memberhsip. There will NEVER be anything that comes close to what the lunatics at Happy Valley seem to want to look away from and move on from. Honestly, I can't believe the Big10 allowed them to stay and did not vote them out. I can't believe anyone outside of conference would schedule them for an OOC game. If the NCAA didn't have the balls, the other partners should have frozen them out. The NCAA should have revoked their membership and no longer allowed them to be a partner. Just like the NBA did to Sterling. Death Penalty for ALL PSU athletics was what should have happened. End of story.

Not sure if serious...

2005, 2009, 2010 & 2011 MWC Football Champions

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Wainstein interviewed dozens of players over two decades and none of them would go on record as saying that their coaches knew about the fraudulent classes. (Rashad McCants claimed that Roy Williams knew about it on ESPN, but he refused to talk to Wainstein.) I think the coaches had to know that something fishy was going on and looked the other way, but so far there is no indication that they were deliberately steering players into fraudulent courses. So far the only people who were definitely steering athletes into these courses were low-level staffers in the athletic support office. Well, and the former president of the faculty senate, which is pretty embarrassing, but still not the same as coaches/athletic directors doing it.

To be clear, I have gone on record as saying sanctions are justified. But this is very different from SMU and Penn State. At SMU both the university president and the athletic director were involved in the scheme to pay players using funds from boosters and participated in the coverup. At Penn State the coach, athletic director, and university president protected a pedophile, lied about it, and were only discovered after they were caught in an outside criminal investigation. At UNC, the fraudulent courses were uncovered during an internal review, and UNC spent a large sum of money to investigate themselves, fired everyone who was involved, and then self-reported everything that happened to the NCAA. I think there is a huge difference between a university president being involved in wrongdoing and covering it up than a university that self-reports violations that occurred when one professor retired on the job and let his secretary do his grading without anyone in the university administration knowing what was happening. Is it sanction-worthy? Yes, in my opinion. Is it worthy of the death penalty? Not even close. If you drop the death penalty on a school that self-reports violations, all you do is encourage schools to cover up wrongdoing in the future. My guess is that the worst-case scenario is that UNC is required to vacate all its wins in the past couple decades (including the two basketball titles), but I doubt it will even come to that. The recent precedent is that if you self-report violations and cooperate with the investigation, usually the sanctions are fairly limited.

Erasing basketball titles? BB might not be lily white, but this is football. Wainstein made an effort to commend Roy, I don't see the cause to severely punish BB. Now football is different, but as you have said, a lot of internal punishment has been given, to include taking accreditation away from AFAM

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Erasing basketball titles? BB might not be lily white, but this is football. Wainstein made an effort to commend Roy, I don't see the cause to severely punish BB. Now football is different, but as you have said, a lot of internal punishment has been given, to include taking accreditation away from AFAM

 

Something like 10 players from the 2005 title team were AFAM majors if I remember correctly. At the bare minimum, that looks really bad. I'm not sure that warrants vacating the title. If you are a player just looking to sign up for the easiest classes possible before you enter the draft, signing up for these no-show AFAM classes is a no-brainer, but that doesn't mean that they couldn't have stayed eligible by taking different classes if the bogus AFAM classes weren't offered. But it still looks incredibly bad, so I'm guessing both UNC's administration and the NCAA are definitely going to think about it. Honestly, I wonder if it would have happened already if people like Dan Kane and Mary Willingham hadn't been been making this their #1 demand for years. I get the impression that UNC is no annoyed with Dan Kane at this point that they will fight against vacating the titles purely out of spite.

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No death penalty. Unless they do this again next year. Anyone from the athletic department needs a show-cause attached to their name. The school should be put on a 60-65 scholarship limit for the next 5 years. This years freshman & Sophmore class should be allowed to transfer out. UNC home games placed on a 1-2 year tv ban.

No bowl bans or vacating wins please. Gayest punishments ever.

 

A show cause for something that the investigation said the top AD brass/coaches didn't know was happening? If you want to put a show cause on the advisers who steered students to these classes, fine, but none of them are finding new jobs in an athletic department anyway. And you really want to punish the current players for something that occurred long before any of them stepped on campus, particularly after UNC self-reported the violations? Honestly, I think vacating wins may be the best possible punishment here. I agree that it's a lame punishment in general, but when you potentially have to vacate three national titles, that's no slap on the wrist. It would set a strong precedent that cheating will not get you wins without punishing the current players.

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Something like 10 players from the 2005 title team were AFAM majors if I remember correctly.

Roy takes over for 03-04 season

 

Year   AFAM majors/Players

 

2003-04 AA 5/13

2004-05 AA 7/13 <—- Won NCAA title.

2005-06 AA 3/11

2006-07 AA 3/15

2007-08 AA 2/12

2008-09 AA 1/16 <— Walden and Crowder left after this school year. Won NCAA title

2009-10 AA 0/10

2010-11 AA 0/8

2011-12 AA 0/9

 

You are right,roughly 10 were AFAM majors.  Seems like basketball also is not the major culprit.  We should also punish the fraternities, if blanket punishment happens, since there were so many in the class that the dean of AFAM thought about getting rid of the course, because the frats knew.  It seems apparent that everyone on campus knew it was an easy A.  Now the larger question is if the paper courses were indeed built for the athletes (seems so), and if certain coaches and staff knew about it (the only one indicated as truly knowing is football). Now, the numbers would indicate Roy and staff found out, and pulled their players.  Perhaps knowing and instead of calling out the football team, he quietly encouraged his men to not take that as a major, is in itself a violation.  But violation of what exactly?

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So you're saying that somewhere out there, there are 3,000 people with a worthless college degree?!

Remember that every argument you have with someone on MWCboard is actually the continuation of a different argument they had with someone else also on MWCboard. 

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