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Roy Moore

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1 minute ago, modestobulldog said:

Furthermore, it seems the most compelling argument is that where there's smoke there's fire. But even then, so close to an election it makes one wonder the root cause of the smoke.

It's all politics and deflection. It's yet one more attempt to retroactively re-litigate the last election while simultaneously trying to even up the sexual harassment scorecard where leftists and leftist institutions are waaaaaay "ahead"'

 

“Science is the belief in the ignorance of experts.”

-Richard Feynman

"When buying and selling are controlled by legislation, the first things to be bought and sold are legislators."

-P.J. O’Rourke

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Amazing the lengths people will go to to rationalize their bias.

It's lose-lose for the Grand Old Pedophiles IMO. Jones could win. But with Trump going all in on Moore, every election in 2018 will be a referendum on the two of them. 

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1 hour ago, modestobulldog said:

The Moore situation is problematic to me.  Correct me if I am wrong, but we have 9 accusations that occurred 4 decades ago that surfaced in near unison approximately a month prior to the election.  Corroborators of the accusers stayed silent as well. 

Corraboraters have not stayed silent.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.redstate.com/patterico/2017/11/10/another-person-corroborates-roy-moores-accuser/amp/

 

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A deputy district attorney who claims Moore would troll for teen girls, yet apparently she did nothing about it. 

The age of consent was 16. So while gross, and to reasonable people even at the time socially stigmatizing, preying on teenage girls was not a crime. Unless they came to her directly alleging a crime, and it’s apparent the 14 year old didn’t want to bring her story to anyone else in power, the D.A. couldn’t do anything. 

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Rumors of Moore being banned from a mall for trolling teen girls, no record likely due to ownership changes.  The yearbook appears to be the only proof, yet it is unavailable for inspection prior to the election.  The misrepresentation post unveiling, post call-out, diminishes the credibility and brings into question the timing and motivation of the postscripts. 

The amount of diminished credibility should be minuscule when taken alongside all the other allegations of similar conduct. It should be noted that initially Moore didn’t even come out and deny this behavior, it was only after the severity of the firestorm was apparent that Moore flat out denied such behavior. 

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For those who criticize Trump and The Republican Party for their support of Moore, how do you reconcile the Democratic Party Support for Ted Kennedy after the Mary Jo Kopechne incident.  

This one is easy for me. For one, the support for Kennedy, a man who killed a woman and escaped justice by lying and using his family’s position of power, was reprehensible. Secondly, and more importantly, Chappaquidick doesn’t have a damn thing to do with Roy Moore. It doesn’t make supporting him even a smidge more justifiable, at all.

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I am not out to defend Moore, I simply don't know. Unfortunately in cases of sexual harassment and sexual assault, unless the victim comes forward immediately and there is evidence, it is just hard to know for sure. Even the Clinton accusers, substantial time passed before revelations were made.  It seems an objective analysis, has to consider the possibility of one or more accusers lying. Some of the accusers have not come forward.

Even if some of the accusers are lying, that would leave plenty telling the truth. If only one is telling the truth, Roy Moore is lying. 

It doesn’t take evidence beyond a reasonable doubt or even a preponderance for a person to gauge the character and credibility of others and form an opinion. If people lived by that logic they would be incredibly stupid right up until the moment of their early death. A person’s opinion can and should change easily based upon new evidence. A court of law’s shouldn’t based on the immense power of wields. It should be clear to anyone with a working synapse that Roy Moore is not on the up and up about any of this.

To paraphrase Jonah Goldberg, 2 months ago we knew Roy Moore was a constitutionally illiterate bigot. Now we can be fairly certain Roy Moore is a constitutionally illiterate bigot who preyed on teenagers.

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Anyway, please let me know if I'm missing something. Been busy, haven't had the time to fully research this issue.

I do agree with mysfit, the country is in a hot mess.

 

We’re all sitting in the dugout. Thinking we should pitch. How you gonna throw a shutout when all you do is bitch.

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2 hours ago, SDSUfan said:

So did she ask him to sign her yearbook before of after he brutally raped her and left her for dead in an alley?

Back in the 70's it was a common practice for young girls to have their rapist sign their year book.

The signature has been authenticated...

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/nationworld/politics/ct-roy-moore-yearbook-20171208-story.html

It also matched a graduation card signed to a 17 yo who says she had a “consensual” relationship with Moore when he was 34.

Evidently, statatory rape isn’t a thing in Alabama.

https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2017/12/former-teenage-girlfriend-finds-graduation-card-moore-sent-her-in-1981.html

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Women have stayed silent for decades. The dam has burst and a lot of stories are coming out. It isn't some grand conspiracy. It's simply that women have had enough of powerful men preying on them. The fact that a sexual predator is in the WH was the proverbial straw.

 

That aside, Moore has a whole host of other issues making him unfit. There's the twice being removed from the bench. There are his racist comments and saying families had it better when there was slavery. There are his comments about diversity being a negative.

 

You can take and argue any one or 2 of those but when you look at the total picture that is Moore, no one with a conscience, a spine or a genuine concern for this country and reasonable morals and ethics could vote for him. And yet, he will be elected. The decay and rot in this country has hit the point of no return.

 

This isn't a partisan issue, it's an issue about humanity and decency. Arguing and pointing to 'the other side' isn't a defense or justification. It's proof we no no longer have morals and cannot tell the difference between right and wrong. 

One of the Final Five..........

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1 hour ago, thelawlorfaithful said:

Corraboraters have not stayed silent.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.redstate.com/patterico/2017/11/10/another-person-corroborates-roy-moores-accuser/amp/

That doesn't appear to be an objective source, the corraboraters were silent for decades.

The age of consent was 16. So while gross, and to reasonable people even at the time socially stigmatizing, preying on teenage girls was not a crime. Unless they came to her directly alleging a crime, and it’s apparent the 14 year old didn’t want to bring her story to anyone else in power, the D.A. couldn’t do anything. 

She apparently did nothing, are there ethics or some other warning?  If she knew he was dating a 16 year old, would there be a problem stating so?  Could anything else be done to protect others?  Did she talk to Moore about it?

The amount of diminished credibility should be minuscule when taken alongside all the other allegations of similar conduct. It should be noted that initially Moore didn’t even come out and deny this behavior, it was only after the severity of the firestorm was apparent that Moore flat out denied such behavior. 

How many accusers are in the open where claims can somewhat be evaluated?  Men are falsely accused of abuse sometimes in Family Court.  Here again, I am not defending more, but I think it's healthy to be skeptical even with serious charges.

This one is easy for me. For one, the support for Kennedy, a man who killed a woman and escaped justice by lying and using his family’s position of power, was reprehensible. Secondly, and more importantly, Chappaquidick doesn’t have a damn thing to do with Roy Moore. It doesn’t make supporting him even a smidge more justifiable, at all.

I agree it has nothing to do with Moore, the context was in relation to political parties support of their person

Even if some of the accusers are lying, that would leave plenty telling the truth. If only one is telling the truth, Roy Moore is lying. 

Once once again, how many are out in the open and where their Claims can be evaluated?  What does one do with an anonymous accusation?

It doesn’t take evidence beyond a reasonable doubt or even a preponderance for a person to gauge the character and credibility of others and form an opinion. If people lived by that logic they would be incredibly stupid right up until the moment of their early death. A person’s opinion can and should change easily based upon new evidence. A court of law’s shouldn’t based on the immense power of wields. It should be clear to anyone with a working synapse that Roy Moore is not on the up and up about any of this.

I I generally agree, the problem is there's so little if any evidence in this case.

To paraphrase Jonah Goldberg, 2 months ago we knew Roy Moore was a constitutionally illiterate bigot. Now we can be fairly certain Roy Moore is a constitutionally illiterate bigot who preyed on teenagers.

It does look more like it than not, thanks for the additional information.

 

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2 hours ago, Old_SD_Dude said:

Amazing the lengths people will go to to rationalize their bias.

It's lose-lose for the Grand Old Pedophiles IMO. Jones could win. But with Trump going all in on Moore, every election in 2018 will be a referendum on the two of them. 

I am not sure if this was directed at me or not, but I genuinely wanted more information. As I have admitted, I've not been able to keep up with this particular issue. When I stated it was problematic, part of that problem was the seriousness of the allegations. 

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6 hours ago, modestobulldog said:

I am not sure if this was directed at me or not, but I genuinely wanted more information. As I have admitted, I've not been able to keep up with this particular issue. When I stated it was problematic, part of that problem was the seriousness of the allegations. 

It wasn't aimed at you any more than anyone else. Unless you dismiss the Washington Post outright, I would urge you to read the original article. The corroboration was very extensive. The claims are not anonymous, nor are the corroborators. 

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1 hour ago, Old_SD_Dude said:

It wasn't aimed at you any more than anyone else. Unless you dismiss the Washington Post outright, I would urge you to read the original article. The corroboration was very extensive. The claims are not anonymous, nor are the corrobotators. 

Thanks, when I went to it, it wanted me to subscribe, other articles just had kernals of information, impossible to get the big picture; hence my questions.

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7 hours ago, modestobulldog said:

The Moore situation is problematic to me.  Correct me if I am wrong, but we have 9 accusations that occurred 4 decades ago that surfaced in near unison approximately a month prior to the election.  Corroborators of the accusers stayed silent as well.  A deputy district attorney who claims Moore would troll for teen girls, yet apparently she did nothing about it.  Rumors of Moore being banned from a mall for trolling teen girls, no record likely due to ownership changes.  The yearbook appears to be the only proof, yet it is unavailable for inspection prior to the election.  The misrepresentation post unveiling, post call-out, diminishes the credibility and brings into question the timing and motivation of the postscripts.  For those who criticize Trump and The Republican Party for their support of Moore, how do you reconcile the Democratic Party Support for Ted Kennedy after the Mary Jo Kopechne incident.  

I am not out to defend Moore, I simply don't know. Unfortunately in cases of sexual harassment and sexual assault, unless the victim comes forward immediately and there is evidence, it is just hard to know for sure. Even the Clinton accusers, substantial time passed before revelations were made.  It seems an objective analysis, has to consider the possibility of one or more accusers lying. Some of the accusers have not come forward.

Anyway, please let me know if I'm missing something. Been busy, haven't had the time to fully research this issue.

I do agree with mysfit, the country is in a hot mess.

I don’t give a darn about what he did 30 years ago.   There are plenty of other reasons not to vote for the bigot.   But to say no one else knew would be false.  The whole town knew and kept him out of the mall.   The fact is in Alabama it just wasn’t that rare given the back ass nature of the state.   In fact, since it wasn't his cousin it’s a step up for that state.   

So it didn’t mean anything till the guy ran for a national office.   

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7 hours ago, jackmormon said:

The signature has been authenticated...

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/nationworld/politics/ct-roy-moore-yearbook-20171208-story.html

It also matched a graduation card signed to a 17 yo who says she had a “consensual” relationship with Moore when he was 34.

Evidently, statatory rape isn’t a thing in Alabama.

https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2017/12/former-teenage-girlfriend-finds-graduation-card-moore-sent-her-in-1981.html

This isn't phucking baseball memorabilia. IDGAF if the signature is real or not, asssume its 10000000% real.

Why?

Why did a 16 yr old waitress in a small Alabama town in 1977 have a newly minted, 28 year old lawyer who apparently was a customer in the restaurant where she worked sign her yearbook?

And

Did he sign before or after he brutally raped her and left her for dead in an alley.?

Now, I don't know how you youngsters do it with your MyFace and your Instachat, but in 1977, WHO signed your yearbook was of major significance, especially for girls. I know this because 1977 was the year I graduated from HS and I have sisters around my age and believe me when I tell you, it was very important.

Typically, your friends, possibly your exes, favorite teachers, and of course the popular kids. maybe the nice nerd that helped you in math class somewhere near the back of the book.  Signatures, once collected were compared and an arbitrary, unwritten social ranking assigned.

So why did she have Roy Moore sign her book? It was a very nice, generic signature that in no way indicates she was at all distressed about the relationship and the time. The fact that she had him sign it I can almost assure you was something she bragged about to her friends.

Not all 16yr old girls are innocent, shrinking violets. Some 15-18yr old girls are downright predatory, especially if they have their eye on an "older" man. In this case. Moore was a single, 28yr old USMA grad, veteran  with a JD and a license in a small Alabama town. Could it possibly be there was a mutual attraction? Could he have been seen as a "catch" in that environment given that in that time and place, marriage was the next big life step, not college, for many if not most young girls.

IOW, dial back the pedo /rape nonsense. It make you all look like a bunch of demented assholes. Try and apply learning, experience, logic and a healthy dose of skepticism to what you read...or not. I don't care

 

“Science is the belief in the ignorance of experts.”

-Richard Feynman

"When buying and selling are controlled by legislation, the first things to be bought and sold are legislators."

-P.J. O’Rourke

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38 minutes ago, SDSUfan said:

This isn't phucking baseball memorabilia. IDAGF if the signature is real or not, asssume its 10000000% real.

Why?

Why did a 16 yr old waitress in a small Alabama town in 1977 have a newly minted, 28 year old lawyer who apparently was a customer in the restaurant where she worked sign her yearbook?

And

Did he sign before or after he brutally raped her and left her for dead in an alley.?

Now, I don't know how you youngsters do it with your MyFace and your Instachat, but in 1977, WHO signed your yearbook was of major significance, especially for girls. I know this because 1977 was the year I graduated from HS and I have sisters around my age and believe me when I tell you, it was very important.

Typically, your friends, possibly your exes, favorite teachers, and of course the popular kids. maybe the nice nerd that helped you in math class somewhere near the back of the book.  Signatures, once collected were compared and an arbitrary, unwritten social ranking assigned.

So why did she have Roy Moore sign her book? It was a very nice, generic signature that in no way indicates she was at all distressed about the relationship and the time. The fact that she had him sign it I can almost assure you was something she bragged about to her friends.

Not all 16yr old girls are innocent, shrinking violets. Some 15-18yr old girls are downright predatory, especially if they have their eye on an "older" man. In this case. Moore was a single, 28yr old USMA grad, veteran  with a JD and a license in a small Alabama town. Could it possibly be there was a mutual attraction? Could he have been seen as a "catch" in that environment given that in that time and place, marriage was the next big life step, not college, for many if not most young girls.

IOW, dial back the pedo /rape nonsense. It make you all look like a bunch of demented assholes. Try and apply learning, experience, logic and a healthy dose of skepticism to what you read...or not. I don't care

 

You're the one who comes off as a demented asshole. Do you have daughters by any chance?

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Just now, Old_SD_Dude said:

You're the one who comes off as a demented asshole. 

sick burn dude

LOL

 

“Science is the belief in the ignorance of experts.”

-Richard Feynman

"When buying and selling are controlled by legislation, the first things to be bought and sold are legislators."

-P.J. O’Rourke

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1 hour ago, SDSUfan said:

This isn't phucking baseball memorabilia. IDGAF if the signature is real or not, asssume its 10000000% real.

Why?

Why did a 16 yr old waitress in a small Alabama town in 1977 have a newly minted, 28 year old lawyer who apparently was a customer in the restaurant where she worked sign her yearbook?

And

Did he sign before or after he brutally raped her and left her for dead in an alley.?

Now, I don't know how you youngsters do it with your MyFace and your Instachat, but in 1977, WHO signed your yearbook was of major significance, especially for girls. I know this because 1977 was the year I graduated from HS and I have sisters around my age and believe me when I tell you, it was very important.

Typically, your friends, possibly your exes, favorite teachers, and of course the popular kids. maybe the nice nerd that helped you in math class somewhere near the back of the book.  Signatures, once collected were compared and an arbitrary, unwritten social ranking assigned.

So why did she have Roy Moore sign her book? It was a very nice, generic signature that in no way indicates she was at all distressed about the relationship and the time. The fact that she had him sign it I can almost assure you was something she bragged about to her friends.

Not all 16yr old girls are innocent, shrinking violets. Some 15-18yr old girls are downright predatory, especially if they have their eye on an "older" man. In this case. Moore was a single, 28yr old USMA grad, veteran  with a JD and a license in a small Alabama town. Could it possibly be there was a mutual attraction? Could he have been seen as a "catch" in that environment given that in that time and place, marriage was the next big life step, not college, for many if not most young girls.

IOW, dial back the pedo /rape nonsense. It make you all look like a bunch of demented assholes. Try and apply learning, experience, logic and a healthy dose of skepticism to what you read...or not. I don't care

 

You seem to care a lot. Do you need a hug?

We’re all sitting in the dugout. Thinking we should pitch. How you gonna throw a shutout when all you do is bitch.

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15 minutes ago, thelawlorfaithful said:

You seem to care a lot. Do you need a hug?

He obviously hasn't got enough of them, willingly at least, up until now. Some definite misogyny there. 

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1 hour ago, SDSUfan said:

So why did she have Roy Moore sign her book? It was a very nice, generic signature that in no way indicates she was at all distressed about the relationship and the time. The fact that she had him sign it I can almost assure you was something she bragged about to her friends.

Not all 16yr old girls are innocent, shrinking violets. Some 15-18yr old girls are downright predatory, especially if they have their eye on an "older" man. In this case. Moore was a single, 28yr old USMA grad, veteran  with a JD and a license in a small Alabama town. Could it possibly be there was a mutual attraction? Could he have been seen as a "catch" in that environment given that in that time and place, marriage was the next big life step, not college, for many if not most young girls.

this is so wrong.  between the odds of it being the predatory older man and the predatory younger girl, you take the former.

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23 minutes ago, AndroidAggie said:

this is so wrong.  between the odds of it being the predatory older man and the predatory younger girl, you take the former.

What happened to right and wrong?

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2 hours ago, SDSUfan said:

This isn't phucking baseball memorabilia. IDGAF if the signature is real or not, asssume its 10000000% real.

Why?

Why did a 16 yr old waitress in a small Alabama town in 1977 have a newly minted, 28 year old lawyer who apparently was a customer in the restaurant where she worked sign her yearbook?

And

Did he sign before or after he brutally raped her and left her for dead in an alley.?

Now, I don't know how you youngsters do it with your MyFace and your Instachat, but in 1977, WHO signed your yearbook was of major significance, especially for girls. I know this because 1977 was the year I graduated from HS and I have sisters around my age and believe me when I tell you, it was very important.

Typically, your friends, possibly your exes, favorite teachers, and of course the popular kids. maybe the nice nerd that helped you in math class somewhere near the back of the book.  Signatures, once collected were compared and an arbitrary, unwritten social ranking assigned.

So why did she have Roy Moore sign her book? It was a very nice, generic signature that in no way indicates she was at all distressed about the relationship and the time. The fact that she had him sign it I can almost assure you was something she bragged about to her friends.

Not all 16yr old girls are innocent, shrinking violets. Some 15-18yr old girls are downright predatory, especially if they have their eye on an "older" man. In this case. Moore was a single, 28yr old USMA grad, veteran  with a JD and a license in a small Alabama town. Could it possibly be there was a mutual attraction? Could he have been seen as a "catch" in that environment given that in that time and place, marriage was the next big life step, not college, for many if not most young girls.

IOW, dial back the pedo /rape nonsense. It make you all look like a bunch of demented assholes. Try and apply learning, experience, logic and a healthy dose of skepticism to what you read...or not. I don't care

 

Deplorable.

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Just now, NVGiant said:

What happened to right and wrong?

i seriously don't know.

if i try to see where they're coming from, i can appreciate how if you're already predisposed to disbelieve this sort of thing that the timing can appear to be contrived.  and reacting as though we're trying to convict Roy Moore and sentence him rather than declare him unfit to run for office might also be part of the animus for their reactions.  but i'm fascinated and unsettled by the whole "get a brain morans" tinge to their reasoning.  both wonder boy above and wyoming coog are adamant that *WE* are the duped ones.  that we are the fools, the stupid, the lacking intellect, the deceived.

as though our regular posting histories and abilities to plumb a topic and engage in civil reasoning isn't evidence of our ability to think critically, but even more evidence of our idiocy.  when someone has demonstrated solid reasoning and thinking to me and they arrive at a very different conclusion i virtually always re-evaluate my own approach and either change it or discover a reasonable position that while i may not agree with it, it's still tenable.  i haven't seen that sort of demonstration from those who on this thread have attempted to discredit Beverly Nelson...  not in the slightest...  i just can't see a tenable position.  

creating room in your mind to believe that a 14-16 year old girl 'wanted it,' essentially -- she initiating the request to sign the yearbook, she boasting of it, she having nefarious purposes for it?  that's MORE believable than a late 20s man having a hard-on for younger girls?  i'm astounded anyone legitimately thinks this.

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