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pokebball

SCOTUS update on Masterpiece Cakeship case

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21 minutes ago, SharkTanked said:

Something has to decide. Why not our elected representatives? That's kind of the point of our representative democratic republic. Or is anarchy preferable?

The internet is now a necessity to do business... soon you will even need it to do business with the government and access essential goods/services. But I can see an argument against since we are not there yet.

OTOH, if you can't be protected from pollution, it infringes on your basic right to live. Assuming we are talking about pollution that does, in fact, kill you. That is out there and illegal now. I see no need to legalize it.

The whole point of constitutional rights is to protect us from our elected representatives. 

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2 minutes ago, sactowndog said:

Done every day today.   Nazi’s are denied jobs on the coast and I’m certain gays are surreptitiously denied jobs in Alabama. 

Then they should file an EEOC case with their local office. We already have laws to prevent this.

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I can think of only few issues like this from Christians.

- No gun shooting range for muslims

- No cake for gays

 

The only other one I can think of is muslim taxis cabs who do not allow someone with booze or dogs in them, but I think opinion of the religious right people (Pat Robertson) who support the above positions might disagree with this position.

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1 minute ago, sactowndog said:

The whole point of constitutional rights is to protect us from our elected representatives. 

And the whole point of elected representatives are to represent us in crafting legislation. If they are not doing so, we vote them out. But ultimately, the "market" decides (now where have I heard that before?).

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2 minutes ago, SharkTanked said:

In this case, someone is getting discriminated against no matter what. Either you are discriminating against the business owner's religious beliefs or discriminating against the sexual orientation of the customers. Who decides which trumps the other?

Common sense and tolerance by both parties should rule here, right?  If I were KKK, why would I go to a bakery owned and operated by a black man, wanting him to cater for my rally.

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17 minutes ago, Joe from WY said:

Businesses, corporations anyway, have constitutional rights. To argue as these other people do on here, you'd think they didn't. They are legal entities with legal rights. 

They shouldn’t have constitutional rights,  though I acknowledge today they do.  I think this issue is the biggest problem facing libertarianism and the biggest threat to our civil liberties.  In rushing to extend them to corporations, ultimately they will deprive them to people and we become an oligarchy.   

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13 minutes ago, sactowndog said:

Right but to often we now extend rights to the business and the business has become an extension of the owner to impose their beliefs on others. 

I don't think the business owner is imposing his beliefs on others.

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3 minutes ago, SharkTanked said:

And the whole point of elected representatives are to represent us in crafting legislation. If they are not doing so, we vote them out. But ultimately, the "market" decides (now where have I heard that before?).

Constitutional rights cannot be abridged by legislation.  That’s supposed to be the whole point.

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14 minutes ago, pokebball said:

Common sense and tolerance by both parties should rule here, right?  If I were KKK, why would I go to a bakery owned and operated by a black man, wanting him to cater for my rally.

In a perfect world, yes. But as witnessed every day, especially as evidenced by our POTUS, common sense is not as common as we think. And therein lies the rub with America today. Cultural shifts are focusing America to reevaluate its culture and some segments are really digging in their heels (MAGA). It is making for some very unreasonable times. One might even say intolerant.

ETA: And when the subject becomes one of religious belief, tolerance is the first thing to go out the window.

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Just now, pokebball said:

I don't think the business owner is imposing his beliefs on others.

Sure he is.   Maybe he has a person on staff that has no problem making the cake.   He is imposing his religious conservative belief opposing gay marriage on his entire staff. 

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1 minute ago, sactowndog said:

Sure he is.   Maybe he has a person on staff that has no problem making the cake.   He is imposing his religious conservative belief opposing gay marriage on his entire staff. 

Unless the entire staff agrees.

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9 minutes ago, Boise fan said:

I'd disagree with your statement that the baker is the business and the business is the baker.  The baker is far more than a baker.  Limiting ourselves to job titles is wrong.  It's oversimplified. 

Even if you grant rights to a business, those rights shouldn't infringe on the rights of others.  And in our society (given its history), civil rights became necessary to stop not only prejudice, but enslavement of others.  Discrimination should never be allowed.  Christians should serve Muslims and vice versa.  Even if in their private lives they want nothing to do with each other. A business is supposed to serve an area, not a particular group.  Denying service to another based on gender, race, sexual orientation or religion is wrong.  

Discrimination has been the tool of oppressive government and people.  It should have no part in a civilized society.

 

I agree 100% with everything you just said with the exception of discriminating against someone because of their religion.  I extend it to them too.

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It's not as though businesses don't have a way out of things - this guy could have subbed it out, or claimed he couldn't meet the deadline and suggested an alternative bakery.  He chose to make his personal beliefs an excuse to discriminate. 

Businesses refuse to do business with others all the time.  But they're smart enough not to stand on some obscure principle that is a form of discrimination because it's wrong. And therefore not good for business.

It could be argued that this baker may make nice cakes but he's a dumb businessman. 

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2 minutes ago, pokebball said:

I agree 100% with everything you just said with the exception of discriminating against someone because of their religion.  I extend it to them too.

I'm not following - do you mean you would offer the same protections based on religion or not?  Because I did write that religion should be a protected civil right.  Or did I misunderstand you statement?

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7 minutes ago, sactowndog said:

Sure he is.   Maybe he has a person on staff that has no problem making the cake.   He is imposing his religious conservative belief opposing gay marriage on his entire staff. 

The employee can make any cake they want, on their time and in their own oven, using their own flour.

Employees don't have freedom to use their employees supplies and equipment, to do anything they want to do on the employers dime.

You're really getting out in left field here man.

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Just now, Boise fan said:

I'm not following - do you mean you would offer the same protections based on religion or not?  Because I did write that religion should be a protected civil right.  Or did I misunderstand you statement?

The baker's religious freedom is protected too.  That's my simple point.

Religious freedom is constitutional and civil.  It's got a special place in our law.

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4 minutes ago, pokebball said:

The employee can make any cake they want, on their time and in their own oven, using their own flour.

Employees don't have freedom to use their employees supplies and equipment, to do anything they want to do on the employers dime.

You're really getting out in left field here man.

So you agree he’s imposing his belief on everyone of his employees by not serving them.   

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Hobby Lobby is an interesting organization that makes Christianity part of employment.  Personally I think it's wrong, because what if a Muslim or a Jewish person needs a job?  They have to pray to Jesus because the boss says so? 

However, their product line is un-mistakingly Christian.  So it goes to follow, it's unlikely a Muslim would want to work there. Just as I doubt a Muslim would work in a butcher shop specializing in pork products.

Now had the bakery been marketed as a Christian Bakery, would it change the situation?  I don't know.  It still smacks of discrimination, but if it's out in the open to begin, it's not as though the customer didn't know what they were getting into. Just like the customer wouldn't expect to find bacon at a Muslim meat shop.

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Just now, pokebball said:

The baker's religious freedom is protected too.  That's my simple point.

Religious freedom is constitutional and civil.  It's got a special place in our law.

Yes it is for a person.  It shouldn’t be for a business.   Last I checked businesses don’t have a religion. 

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