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Democrats don't even want to talk about Tax Bill

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Democrats don't even want to talk about Tax Bill and don't even bother to go to White House on tax bill negotiation.  They don't even want to give their input, because they don't have any input to give.  They can blame Trumps tweet but that's not going to buy them anything.  Their whole policy is to simply vote against everything and not offer anything.  Dems and most their supporters, are so anti-Trump, they don't even want to try and get things added or changed to bills that they may want.  Its like you guys are all sitting back and waiting for something, but not doing anything. 

Yes I know the republicans under Boehner obstructed, but they obstructed to the tune of passing multiple $Trillions of dollars of Obama's bills with their stamp on it. 
Democrats could be working on a complete overhaul of the US Immigration system and get Trump on board if they would just do the wall, or part of it.  Their not interested in actually helping anyone, except themselves.  

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36 minutes ago, pokerider said:

Democrats don't even want to talk about Tax Bill and don't even bother to go to White House on tax bill negotiation.  They don't even want to give their input, because they don't have any input to give.  They can blame Trumps tweet but that's not going to buy them anything.  Their whole policy is to simply vote against everything and not offer anything.  Dems and most their supporters, are so anti-Trump, they don't even want to try and get things added or changed to bills that they may want.  Its like you guys are all sitting back and waiting for something, but not doing anything. 

Yes I know the republicans under Boehner obstructed, but they obstructed to the tune of passing multiple $Trillions of dollars of Obama's bills with their stamp on it. 
Democrats could be working on a complete overhaul of the US Immigration system and get Trump on board if they would just do the wall, or part of it.  Their not interested in actually helping anyone, except themselves.  

Your bill is shit.  Putting lipstick in a pig dosent help.   Make a bipartisan bill that is budget neutral instead of trying to use reconciliation and I bet democrats will vote for it but you wanted reconciliation on day one and now you complain about obstruction.  You never even tried to woo Dems

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6 minutes ago, Akkula said:

Your bill is shit.  Putting lipstick in a pig dosent help.   Make a bipartisan bill that is budget neutral instead of trying to use reconciliation and I bet democrats will vote for it but you wanted reconciliation on day one and now you complain about obstruction.  You never even tried to woo Dems

Elections have consequences.

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52 minutes ago, pokerider said:

Democrats don't even want to talk about Tax Bill and don't even bother to go to White House on tax bill negotiation.  They don't even want to give their input, because they don't have any input to give.  They can blame Trumps tweet but that's not going to buy them anything.  Their whole policy is to simply vote against everything and not offer anything.  Dems and most their supporters, are so anti-Trump, they don't even want to try and get things added or changed to bills that they may want.  Its like you guys are all sitting back and waiting for something, but not doing anything. 

Yes I know the republicans under Boehner obstructed, but they obstructed to the tune of passing multiple $Trillions of dollars of Obama's bills with their stamp on it. 
Democrats could be working on a complete overhaul of the US Immigration system and get Trump on board if they would just do the wall, or part of it.  Their not interested in actually helping anyone, except themselves.  

Have you given this any thought? What could the Dems possibly give and more importantly, what would the GOP concede?

The GOP controls all three branches, why would they concede anything?

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12 minutes ago, Akkula said:

Your bill is shit.  Putting lipstick in a pig dosent help.   Make a bipartisan bill that is budget neutral instead of trying to use reconciliation and I bet democrats will vote for it but you wanted reconciliation on day one and now you complain about obstruction.  You never even tried to woo Dems

There's some things that could be better, but the primary emphasis of the tax bill is lowering Corp taxes to a rate that makes US Companies much more competitive on a world stage.  Even France is lowering their Corp tax rate.  

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8 minutes ago, Jackrabbit said:

Elections have consequences.

Yes they do.....and the pendulum swings.

 

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8 minutes ago, Jackrabbit said:

Elections have consequences.

Obviously not. ..because you guys havent done shit 

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Just now, renoskier said:

Have you given this any thought? What could the Dems possibly give and more importantly, what would the GOP concede?

The GOP controls all three branches, why would they concede anything?

because the GOP is like 3 parties within itself.  

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16 minutes ago, Akkula said:

Your bill is shit.  Putting lipstick in a pig dosent help.   Make a bipartisan bill that is budget neutral instead of trying to use reconciliation and I bet democrats will vote for it but you wanted reconciliation on day one and now you complain about obstruction.  You never even tried to woo Dems

The Democrats can't afford a successful tax reform to occur.  It would be the worst thing that could happen to the party at this time.

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2 minutes ago, pokerider said:

There's some things that could be better, but the primary emphasis of the tax bill is lowering Corp taxes to a rate that makes US Companies much more competitive on a world stage.  Even France is lowering their Corp tax rate.  

This is critical for the US

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1 minute ago, pokerider said:

There's some things that could be better, but the primary emphasis of the tax bill is lowering Corp taxes to a rate that makes US Companies much more competitive on a world stage.  Even France is lowering their Corp tax rate.  

The primary emphasis is giving Trump and the donor class a bigly tax cut to buy more campaign contributions.

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They could have eliminated the corporate income and amt tax entirely and offset with higher top end individual tax rates to keep it budget neutral but that wouldnt allow them to game the system for the donor class. 

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7 minutes ago, pokerider said:

because the GOP is like 3 parties within itself.  

Right, so why should the Dems help them pass anything?

Honestly, if the GOP can't get their shit together, there's no way Democratic support could help them anyway.

Anything the GOP could possibly concede would turn off as many or more GOP votes than it would gain in Dem votes.

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57 minutes ago, pokerider said:

There's some things that could be better, but the primary emphasis of the tax bill is lowering Corp taxes to a rate that makes US Companies much more competitive on a world stage.  Even France is lowering their Corp tax rate.  

I would agree if this were only true.   I think the bigger impact is lowering taxes on the wealthy especially the estate tax.

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1 hour ago, pokebball said:

This is critical for the US

I would agree and as you know I would take the Corporate Income tax to zero.   

If the Dems were smart they would propose taking the Corporate Income Tax to zero and off-setting it with an increase in the capital gains tax rate to the level of income tax.   No one has provided a reasonable answer yet as to why we provide a preferred tax rate to invest in China.   

But the Repubs are greedy and the Dems don’t give a shit about anyone but their donors.

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Let’s talk about it. Only 25% of Americans support the bill, while 52% oppose it.

Only 2% of economists say the bill would provide long term economic growth and 100% say that it will increase the debt.

In a new poll from the University of Chicago's Booth School of Business, 38 economists from schools including Yale, MIT and the University of California-Berkeley weighed in on contentious points about the GOP tax plans.

On one question, the economists were asked whether enacting "a tax bill similar to those currently moving through the House and Senate" would lead to a "substantially higher" rate of economic growth a decade from now than it would otherwise.

Only 2 percent — or, 1 out of 38 economists — agreed. 36 percent were uncertain, 33 percent disagreed, and another 19 percent strongly disagreed. (The remainder did not answer.)

Economists were much more certain about what the tax bills would do to the debt. They were asked whether a tax bill like those in the House and Senate right now would leave the U.S. debt-to-GDP ratio (a common measure of how large the national debt is) "substantially higher" in a decade than otherwise.

On this question, fully 43 percent agreed that it would leave the debt level higher, and another 45 percent strongly agreed. Only 1 economist was uncertain. None disagreed.

But there's a catch, yet again, with the one economist who stood alone. That economist, Stanford's Liran Einav, told the Washington Post that he "didn't read the question properly" and in fact agreed with his peers.

https://www.npr.org/2017/11/23/56603420 ... p-tax-plan

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8 minutes ago, jackmormon said:

Let’s talk about it. Only 25% of Americans support the bill, while 52% oppose it.

Only 2% of economists say the bill would provide long term economic growth and 100% say that it will increase the debt.

In a new poll from the University of Chicago's Booth School of Business, 38 economists from schools including Yale, MIT and the University of California-Berkeley weighed in on contentious points about the GOP tax plans.

On one question, the economists were asked whether enacting "a tax bill similar to those currently moving through the House and Senate" would lead to a "substantially higher" rate of economic growth a decade from now than it would otherwise.

Only 2 percent — or, 1 out of 38 economists — agreed. 36 percent were uncertain, 33 percent disagreed, and another 19 percent strongly disagreed. (The remainder did not answer.)

Economists were much more certain about what the tax bills would do to the debt. They were asked whether a tax bill like those in the House and Senate right now would leave the U.S. debt-to-GDP ratio (a common measure of how large the national debt is) "substantially higher" in a decade than otherwise.

On this question, fully 43 percent agreed that it would leave the debt level higher, and another 45 percent strongly agreed. Only 1 economist was uncertain. None disagreed.

But there's a catch, yet again, with the one economist who stood alone. That economist, Stanford's Liran Einav, told the Washington Post that he "didn't read the question properly" and in fact agreed with his peers.

https://www.npr.org/2017/11/23/56603420 ... p-tax-plan

The interesting thing about numbers is that we all can slice and dice them to present pretty much everything we want them to support.  I'm not reading all of it.  I'm not looking for math that supports my opinion and cutting and pasting it on boards.  What I do know is our economy is toast if we don't drop the corporate rate to a maximum rate competitive with the rest of the world.  That isn't an option.  It has to be done.  Our economy will be far worse than any math that anyone is trying to sell.

Additionally, as our economy grows, we can handle more debt.  Economic health isn't measured by total debt but by the ratio of debt to GDP..

An interesting dynamic in these tax proposals is the individual mandate.  Many economists and others that are studying these proposals are assuming everyone receiving govt subsidies for the insurance the mandate requires them to buy will stay insured and continue to receive these subsidies.  You drop the mandate, many will drop the insurance and not get the subsidy.  This dynamic is a very large part of future debt tied to these tax plans (based on the little I've read).

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If the GOP wanted the Dems to talk, they should have invited them to the table to begin with. Not after the fact.

 

No reason for Dems to talk and in any way legitimize this travesty.

GOP own both houses and the white house. And everything that gets done, or doesn't get done. Stop trying to blame Dems.......it's the GOP's show from start to finish. Own it.

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3 minutes ago, pokebball said:

The interesting thing about numbers is that we all can slice and dice them to present pretty much everything we want them to support.  I'm not reading all of it.  I'm not looking for math that supports my opinion and cutting and pasting it on boards.  What I do know is our economy is toast if we don't drop the corporate rate to a maximum rate competitive with the rest of the world.  That isn't an option.  It has to be done.  Our economy will be far worse than any math that anyone is trying to sell.

Additionally, as our economy grows, we can handle more debt.  Economic health isn't measured by total debt but by the ratio of debt to GDP..

An interesting dynamic in these tax proposals is the individual mandate.  Many economists and others that are studying these proposals are assuming everyone receiving govt subsidies for the insurance the mandate requires them to buy will stay insured and continue to receive these subsidies.  You drop the mandate, many will drop the insurance and not get the subsidy.  This dynamic is a very large part of future debt tied to these tax plans (based on the little I've read).

Our effective tax rate is already in line others industrialized countries.

This is a pretty good sample of respected economists. They say there won’t be any significant growth.

if republicans wanted to kill the ACA, they should have done it on a stand alone bill. They tried and didn’t have the votes.

GOP tax bill would add $1.7 trillion to debt: CBO. The GOP's tax bill would add $1.7 trillion to the national debt over the course of a decade, and increase the country's debt-to-GDP ratio by 5.9 percentage points, according to the Congressional Budget Office.Nov 8, 2017

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