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5 Dead, Elementary shot up in North California Shooting Spree

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1 hour ago, thelawlorfaithful said:

I want to only respond to this part of the post because I think you’re dead wrong. I’m no expert, but have delved into serial killers for as long as I can remember. Psychopaths fascinate me in the worst way.

Most of the people who carry out these mass murders are not psychopaths. At the least they aren’t in the way psychopaths become serial killers. It’s very different. Most people who commit these mass murders are not psychopaths as currently understood, their brains are not, as shall we say, deformed in the way psychopaths usually are. It isn’t a lack of empathy that derives their crimes, it’s something else.

I would urge those with the stomach to read Eric Harris’s diaries. He was a psychopath, but he also touched profoundly, I think, on what drives people towards this kind of crime. Harris wanted to be the “best” domestic terrorist ever, to beat McVeigh, and to spawn more attacks that would end up wiping out the human race. You see, he didn’t believe human existence, your existence as a human being, was justified compared to the evil and suffering in the world. He was not concerned with all the evil and suffering, only the suffering that applied to his own stupid suffering in high school existence and how reality wasn’t exactly as he wanted all of the time. He was a total putz that way. And had he not been so good at being manipulative a depressed douche like Kleibhold only would have killed himself. Harris likley would have gone on to be a real serial killer anyways. His diaries suggest as much.

But these mass killers? They are not psychopaths, most of them. They have little to do with the Dahmer’s, Gacy’s, Brudo’s, Ramirez’s, Speck’s of the world. They might have led relatively normal lives had not a few things not gone tragically wrong, many of which they had a hand in causing.

These mass shooters, for the most part, don’t believe the suffering endemic to human existence is justified. Which is different from believing their own suffering isn’t justified, because then the answer is just kill yourself. They don’t do that. They have to cause as much pain and suffering as possible before they do that, that is something totally different. That is rational, in a horrible way. It’s not psychopathic. And I don’t know how we form our secular culture in a way that makes being meaningful without allowing for that nihilism that is at the heart of all these massacres.

I can only do my best in my own life. Hopefully by doing so I can inspire an otherwise normal person I know, to understand life can be better, that existence is justified.

You make some interesting points. I'm not an expert at analyzing the brain or motives of a mass murderer either but it had seemed to me that in cases of both serial killer and mass shooter that there are commonalities such as home dysfunction, abuse, neglect, or bullying. Please correct me if I'm wrong but it also seems they tend to be people who feel isolated, intellectually misunderstood, and carry an internal rage that flares up until they finally snap. One thing that I think is interesting about the Las Vegas shooter is that he didn't personally know who he was shooting and this kind of mitigates the theory that mass shooters or spree killers always know their victims. Lastly, it appears to me that both profiles often tend to lack self esteem and/or confidence and their aggression is an outlet or means for them to finally gain control. 

We could also go down the discussion path of whether or not murderers (serial killers or mass shooters) are born dysfunctional or if they become that way. Essentially the old nature verses nurture argument. Does the brain start out warped or does it evolve due to traumatic experiences? I think the only way to tell would be to scan and monitor brain function from a very early age and observe overtime but I don't know how or under what circumstance that could ever be accomplished. 

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7 hours ago, mugtang said:

"The global history of mass shootings demonstrates that the vast majority of these crimes are perpetrated in places where citizen firearms ownership is close to nil."

I will say that I am tired of the "Jedi Mind Tricks" that the conservatives use to try to get the weak minded to believe that up is down, left is right, white is black when we can see the truth and the stats with our own eyes.  We see this same coordinated obfuscation with climate change, trickle down economics, gun control, healthcare, etc.  The argument always seems to devolve from "what do we do with the X problem" to "can we even agree that facts are facts."  When we can't even agree that there is a problem and everyone can choose to believe their own sets of facts you get presidents like Trump.  

It would be refreshing for people just to come out and say, "I really like shooting and blowing shit up and I am against any inconveniences to my fun."

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2 hours ago, BSUTOP25 said:

He’s 100% correct. You ban firearms today, first thing tomorrow morning a black market will spring up. 

Also, the thing we’re ignoring in this whole debate is the motivation behind these copycat shootings. What drives a perp to go out and murder total strangers in a manner similar to perps before? The AR-15 is not the most effective weapon to do this sort of thing yet in these type of massacres, it is often used. Most likely because of the way it looks rather than how it performs.

My opinion is that today’s “mass” shooter is yesterday’s serial killer. There’s some form of derangement in the brain that drives a rage bent on some form of revenge and acknowledgement. These people aren’t interested in a cause and they are typically those who view society as the reason for their life situation.

I would wager that in almost every circumstance it comes down to some type of abuse or neglect during their formative years and this is their last chance to get back at everyone they blame. 

I agree with you on many things but on this issue I recognize that you are one of those who basically says you won't accept any tightening of the laws.  You are one of the "cold dead hands" people so it is almost pointless to continue the discussion trying to persuade.  Like I said, people will just have to get sufficiently fed up and push through gun control efforts with you clawing and screaming every inch.  

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5 minutes ago, Akkula said:

I agree with you on many things but on this issue I recognize that you are one of those who basically says you won't accept any tightening of the laws.  You are one of the "cold dead hands" people so it is almost pointless to continue the discussion trying to persuade.  Like I said, people will just have to get sufficiently fed up and push through gun control efforts with you clawing and screaming every inch.  

Yeah, I'm basically one of those selfish assholes who believe in and advocates for individual liberty. I should be ashamed to suggest that removing an individual's right to own and protect their property and personal well being is wrong. I guess I would be a much more caring and sensible person if I believed the state should have all authority to manage society. 

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7 hours ago, mugtang said:

Handguns are responsible for 10x the number of murders rifles are and 60x the total number of gun deaths (when suicide is included) yet nobody brings that up.  It's always the evil AR-15

I agree with you there.  We should be more worried about banning hand guns.  Only gigantic revolvers should be allowed which can't be easily concealed.  I actually don't care that much about an AR-15 as long as it can only shoot 6-8 rounds per reload.

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9 minutes ago, BSUTOP25 said:

Yeah, I'm basically one of those selfish assholes who believe in and advocates for individual liberty. I should be ashamed to suggest that removing an individual's right to own and protect their property and personal well being is wrong. I guess I would be a much more caring and sensible person if I believed the state should have all authority to manage society. 

You put your wants to own and have fun with a gun over the rights of other folks to live more free of gun violence.  You are not persuadable.

There should really be people on here who advocate banning the second amendment and seizing all firearms as the the gun clutchers always portray.  At least that would make folks who want some restrictions in place seem reasonable and would be a counterbalance to "cold dead hands" folks like you.  We could then meet in the middle and stop negotiating with ourselves.

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Just now, Akkula said:

You put your wants to own and have fun with a gun over the rights of other folks to live more free of gun violence.  You are not persuadable.

There should really be people on here who advocate banning the second amendment and seizing all firearms as the the gun clutchers always portray.  At least that would make folks who want some restrictions in place seem reasonable and would be a counterbalance to "cold dead hands" folks like you.

Whether it be owning property, consuming alcohol or drugs, loving and cohabitating with someone else, etc., I put the rights of individuals over the authority of the state on most issues. I'm not like you and Comrade fan who believe in an authoritative state that micromanages people. 

There really are people on here who would absolutely love to ban the second amendment and seizing all firearms but they're not being genuinely honest about it. I don't believe the charade of saying "I don't think guns should be banned" out of one side of the mouth while saying "the sole purpose of a gun is to kill" out the other. 

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1 minute ago, BSUTOP25 said:

Whether it be owning property, consuming alcohol or drugs, loving and cohabitating with someone else, etc., I put the rights of individuals over the authority of the state on most issues. I'm not like you and Comrade fan who believe in an authoritative state that micromanages people. 

There really are people on here who would absolutely love to ban the second amendment and seizing all firearms but they're not being genuinely honest about it. I don't believe the charade of saying "I don't think guns should be banned" out of one side of the mouth while saying "the sole purpose of a gun is to kill" out the other. 

I would say you put the individual rights of the gun owner to possess property over the individual rights of the gun victim to possess life.    

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1 minute ago, Akkula said:

I would say you put the individual rights of the gun owner to possess property over the individual rights of the gun victim to possess life.    

No, that's a really dumb bullshit argument. Just because one person owns a gun that doesn't mean a life somewhere is taken away as a result . That would be like me saying we should ban knives because the rights of a stabbing victim were taken away. Anyway, it's clear as day you're one of those who would prefer to remove the second amendment. 

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3 minutes ago, BSUTOP25 said:

No, that's a really dumb bullshit argument. Just because one person owns a gun that doesn't mean a life somewhere is taken away as a result . That would be like me saying we should ban knives because the rights of a stabbing victim were taken away. Anyway, it's clear as day you're one of those who would prefer to remove the second amendment. 

I wish there were a real true anti 2nd amendment movement....we really need that to happen so that the people who want common sense gun control can start from a position of strength in negotiating.  

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1 minute ago, Akkula said:

I wish there were a real true anti 2nd amendment movement....we really need that to happen so that the people who want common sense gun control can start from a position of strength in negotiating.  

By "common sense gun control" you really mean bans. Just be honest.

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9 minutes ago, Akkula said:

I mean "anything"...but you want "nothing"...be honest.

I am honest. I don't want there to be any more bans on firearms in the US than there already are. If you want to close the "gun show loophole" as you people (and yes, I mean you people) call it, go ahead. If you want to make background checks more effective, go ahead. But banning more shit isn't going to solve the underlying problem of violent behavior. Bans would simply cause methodologies to evolve with the use of new or different tools. Meanwhile, responsible gun owners like myself would have their constitutional rights removed with your beloved bans. 

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7 hours ago, jackmormon said:

Republicans never shy away from angry words

Republicans are off their rockers these days.  But, they're part of the political machine that is the United States.  I think it's time to let political slights go and not get pulled in to a tug of war.

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14 hours ago, Akkula said:

 

Make that argument to me once California or Chicago gets its own border patrol and customs enforcement and can decide which products are allowed to enter its borders.  Same thing with Texas stealing its jobs and then trying to still sell back to California.  The federal control of interstate commerce makes all of California/Chicago's gun control efforts and protection of workers and the environment null and void when there is "open borders" with states who want a race to the bottom.  Same phenomenon with our free trade agreements that are setup to reward races to the bottom by corporations to the lowest common denominator for labor and environmental rules.

So open borders is bad within the U.S., but good with other countries? 

B)

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14 hours ago, AndroidAggie said:

I think that outside of a major cultural shift this is American reality 

The sarcastic echoes of "thoughts and prayers" come across as snide "Where's your God, now??" because those who employ that tactic don't think thoughts and prayers are worth shit. So instead of changing hearts and minds they cause more division 

The American right is too chicken and too paranoid to go along with restrictions and registration

The NRA is too beyond the pale fcked up to do what they should: take the lead in the culture war and spend money in advertising to spread the word that lone gunmen are not to be celebrated nor admired. The celebrity of the lone wolf is obliquely glorified in death by the media, and the media have lost credibility with the masses on the right who love their guns... Just see who uses the term "mainstream media" and who loves guns. 

We're fcked 

And more people are dead

What a shit show

That is such a ridiculous stance. If people offering thoughts and prayers comes across as sarcastic and snide, that's a YOU problem. Just because you're on opposite sides of a debate on a problem that has no real viable solution as of yet, that doesn't mean that thoughts and prayers are insincere. This is the the third or fourth time I've seen that posted here and it points more towards the vitriol in you towards the right than anything. You have more anger towards conservatives than towards the person who committed the heinous act....and THAT is f'ed up. 

 

 

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17 minutes ago, Slapdad said:

So open borders is bad within the U.S., but good with other countries? 

B)

Let's say you got offered your dream job in a place you wanted to live tomorrow outside of the USA.  The money offered was above the market wage in that country, you agreed to pre-fund your return ticket home, to not use social services, to pay tax, get a background check, and pay for a health insurance policy.  Would you consider it "open borders" if the host country permitted you to take that job?  

My issue is that we already have open borders for "product" but we want to tightly control "people" and our trade agreements don't take into account the negative impacts of trade on people and the environment.  Talk to people in the UK if they are in favor of "open borders" now that they may soon lose the ability to work in Europe with Brexit.  But this is a bit off topic for a gun thread!

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9 minutes ago, Slapdad said:

That is such a ridiculous stance. If people offering thoughts and prayers comes across as sarcastic and snide, that's a YOU problem. Just because you're on opposite sides of a debate on a problem that has no real viable solution as of yet, that doesn't mean that thoughts and prayers are insincere. This is the the third or fourth time I've seen that posted here and it points more towards the vitriol in you towards the right than anything. You have more anger towards conservatives than towards the person who committed the heinous act....and THAT is f'ed up. 

I must've confused you.

I'm not angry at conservatives or the rights.  I'm actually a fairly religious guy, so offering thoughts and prayers isn't an empty social media post.  I'm not even angry at Akkula for sarcastically posting the hashtag '#thoughtsandprayers'.  I just think that sarcastically restating the message makes people who are religious less likely to respond to real gun legislation.

I understand how empty that kind of sentiment can come across to people who either don't believe or see the Paul Ryan type right wing politician who offer thoughts and prayers but then do nothing with the power they have to restrict access to firearms.  But I don't like the sarcastic riposte.  I think it's more helpful to engage people on their terms to get to a solution.  The point is that prayers aren't enough, irrespective of whether or not they are real or not.  Most American Christian types who would say things like 'thoughts and prayers' would likely respond to wanting to help ourselves out anyway.  So it's better to engage with people.

FWIW I think the right needs to do the same rather than sit back and harp incessantly about Obama this and Libturd that.

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13 hours ago, mugtang said:

Handguns are responsible for 10x the number of murders rifles are and 60x the total number of gun deaths (when suicide is included) yet nobody brings that up.

I bring this up frequently.  Handguns are overwhelmingly used for killing humans.  It's a human killing tool.  If they had never existed, there would be a chance of less murders (the ease of shooting someone vs stabbing/strangling/bludgeoning)

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