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Jimbo_Poke

Cannabis - Cocaine - Alcohol - Violence Study

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Below is a link to a study on cannabis, cocaine, and alcohol use and violence.  Curious as to thoughts on this.

Frontiers in Psychiatry - 21 September 2017

I have only had a chance to give a quick once over, so can't give my own in depth thoughts, but not the results I would have predicted.  

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10 minutes ago, Jimbo_Poke said:

but not the results I would have predicted.  

Well, this study just found an association, it didn't determine cannabis to be the reason for the violent behavior. The results make kind of sense to me. Someone who feels the need to be high all the time, is likely to have more problems in life and to live in less ideal conditions than someone who only uses drugs infrequently. So it makes sense that these people would get involved in violent situations more often than the control group. 

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11 minutes ago, Jimbo_Poke said:

Below is a link to a study on cannabis, cocaine, and alcohol use and violence.  Curious as to thoughts on this.

Frontiers in Psychiatry - 21 September 2017

I have only had a chance to give a quick once over, so can't give my own in depth thoughts, but not the results I would have predicted.  

Most interesting to me is the decrease for cocaine use.

There was another article I read yesterday: https://www.vice.com/en_us/article/7bdabb/a-neuroscientist-explains-how-he-found-out-meth-is-almost-identical-to-adderall 

It discusses how adderall and meth are functionally the same when taken in the same manner and doses. 

Apparently our assumptions about drugs are not well grounded in reality. I used to be fairly opposed to decriminalization of "harder" drugs like cocaine and meth but... frankly... the evidence shows that they are a lot "softer" than drugs we take for granted like alcohol or prescription pain pills (or even weed, apparently). 

Remember that every argument you have with someone on MWCboard is actually the continuation of a different argument they had with someone else also on MWCboard. 

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10 minutes ago, SharkTanked said:

This study was performed on discharged psychiatric patients? I mean it's a little hard to get past that part...

Yet, why do you not see the same sort of relationship between alcohol and cocaine as you do cannabis among this same population?  Also that cannabis use rate is higher among this particular group than the general population is also not a ringing endorsement for cannabis use.  I would say they do a good job of explaining why this study focuses on psychiatric patients. 

14 minutes ago, happycamper said:

Most interesting to me is the decrease for cocaine use.

There was another article I read yesterday: https://www.vice.com/en_us/article/7bdabb/a-neuroscientist-explains-how-he-found-out-meth-is-almost-identical-to-adderall 

It discusses how adderall and meth are functionally the same when taken in the same manner and doses. 

Apparently our assumptions about drugs are not well grounded in reality. I used to be fairly opposed to decriminalization of "harder" drugs like cocaine and meth but... frankly... the evidence shows that they are a lot "softer" than drugs we take for granted like alcohol or prescription pain pills (or even weed, apparently). 

Agreed.  At first glance I was thinking did they accidentally switch the cannabis and cocaine data?  That the results of this study did not mesh with what I thought was the biggest reason for me posting it.

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28 minutes ago, happycamper said:

Most interesting to me is the decrease for cocaine use.

There was another article I read yesterday: https://www.vice.com/en_us/article/7bdabb/a-neuroscientist-explains-how-he-found-out-meth-is-almost-identical-to-adderall 

It discusses how adderall and meth are functionally the same when taken in the same manner and doses. 

Apparently our assumptions about drugs are not well grounded in reality. I used to be fairly opposed to decriminalization of "harder" drugs like cocaine and meth but... frankly... the evidence shows that they are a lot "softer" than drugs we take for granted like alcohol or prescription pain pills (or even weed, apparently). 

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“Science is the belief in the ignorance of experts.”

-Richard Feynman

"When buying and selling are controlled by legislation, the first things to be bought and sold are legislators."

-P.J. O’Rourke

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11 minutes ago, Jimbo_Poke said:

Yet, why do you not see the same sort of relationship between alcohol and cocaine as you do cannabis among this same population?  Also that cannabis use rate is higher among this particular group than the general population is also not a ringing endorsement for cannabis use.  I would say they do a good job of explaining why this study focuses on psychiatric patients. 

Agreed.  At first glance I was thinking did they accidentally switch the cannabis and cocaine data?  That the results of this study did not mesh with what I thought was the biggest reason for me posting it.

I am going to sound extremely uneducated here, because I am, but aren't there concerns about translating results from anger/emotion study on psychiatric patients (former or current) to the general population? I mean can it somehow be argued that their brains process these chemicals differently than one who does not have any psychiatric condition? I just wonder if these findings translate.

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Guest RoscoesDad
15 minutes ago, Jimbo_Poke said:

Yet, why do you not see the same sort of relationship between alcohol and cocaine as you do cannabis among this same population?  Also that cannabis use rate is higher among this particular group than the general population is also not a ringing endorsement for cannabis use.  I would say they do a good job of explaining why this study focuses on psychiatric patients. 

Agreed.  At first glance I was thinking did they accidentally switch the cannabis and cocaine data?  That the results of this study did not mesh with what I thought was the biggest reason for me posting it.

Likely because a given drug will have different effects on different people due to body/brain chemistry.  Perhaps the THC interacts with people with mental illness i.e. schizophernia differently than it does with the general population.  For example, when I take hydrocodone, it amps me up like a just did a huge rail of blow and there is no way I am going to sleep if I take one at night.  When my girlfriend took the same lortab/vicodin for her recent surgery, it knocked her out cold.  Or the difference in the way people react to alcohol - some get violent and stupid, while others get quiet and introverted.  At the most all this study says to me is that MJ might not be a good idea for those with a diagnosed mental illness.

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20 minutes ago, SharkTanked said:

I am going to sound extremely uneducated here, because I am, but aren't there concerns about translating results from anger/emotion study on psychiatric patients (former or current) to the general population? I mean can it somehow be argued that their brains process these chemicals differently than one who does not have any psychiatric condition? I just wonder if these findings translate.

I think those are valid questions for future studies.  But along those lines I also think does cannabis use increase your chance for suffering psychiatric conditions is also a valid question for future studies.

9 minutes ago, RoscoesDad said:

Likely because a given drug will have different effects on different people due to body/brain chemistry.  Perhaps the THC interacts with people with mental illness i.e. schizophernia differently than it does with the general population.  For example, when I take hydrocodone, it amps me up like a just did a huge rail of blow and there is no way I am going to sleep if I take one at night.  When my girlfriend took the same lortab/vicodin for her recent surgery, it knocked her out cold.  Or the difference in the way people react to alcohol - some get violent and stupid, while others get quiet and introverted.  At the most all this study says to me is that MJ might not be a good idea for those with a diagnosed mental illness.

At the most, maybe if you just look at the title.  From the article

Quote

Although the sequence of these events remains inconclusive, it is plausible that an earlier age of chronic onset of cannabis use (more specifically before brain maturation: prior to 16 years old) could deteriorate neural structures associated with inhibition and, thus, lead to an increased risk of developing adult antisocial behaviors (56, 6164). This is of particular importance in order to promote awareness about youth substance use and should be targeted by future studies.

How many times have we heard or even wrote ourselves that cannabis use chills people out not make them angry like alcohol, well this at least gives me pause in stating such.  Like Happy said maybe we don't know as much about drugs as we think we do.

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1 hour ago, SharkTanked said:

I am going to sound extremely uneducated here, because I am, but aren't there concerns about translating results from anger/emotion study on psychiatric patients (former or current) to the general population? I mean can it somehow be argued that their brains process these chemicals differently than one who does not have any psychiatric condition? I just wonder if these findings translate.

I just read the abstract but the study addresses only psychiatric patients so you are right that you can't make any determination on non psychiatric users.

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You really can't make a lot of assumptions on the study because they only studied a smallish area of population. Really studies should be done with more groups to see interactions however at the same time healthy or not, drugs can affect people in different ways. We had people that were on meth who were seeing things that weren't there thinking people coming after them and attacking people. You have some who have been doing drugs for ages but not committed crimes to get their fix. However doing Meth and some other hard drugs do take a terrible toll on the body over time. 

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Guest RoscoesDad
1 hour ago, Jimbo_Poke said:

I think those are valid questions for future studies.  But along those lines I also think does cannabis use increase your chance for suffering psychiatric conditions is also a valid question for future studies.

At the most, maybe if you just look at the title.  From the article

How many times have we heard or even wrote ourselves that cannabis use chills people out not make them angry like alcohol, well this at least gives me pause in stating such.  Like Happy said maybe we don't know as much about drugs as we think we do.

I read the article and you are trying WAAAAAAAAAY too hard to make some sort of false generalization here.  It's a small sample size of a group of people who are already diagnosed with some type of mental illness.  The conclusion should be kept to the findings of the study (hint: THC may not be good for mental patients who have been institutionalized).  OK fine, I find even that debatable but I also understand that was the scope of the study and that's where it ends..  Instead you're insinuating some ridiculous hair brain false narrative that the findings of this study somehow "may" apply to everyone.  

A lot of people are saying....

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19 minutes ago, RoscoesDad said:

I read the article and you are trying WAAAAAAAAAY too hard to make some sort of false generalization here.  It's a small sample size of a group of people who are already diagnosed with some type of mental illness.  The conclusion should be kept to the findings of the study (hint: THC may not be good for mental patients who have been institutionalized).  OK fine, I find even that debatable but I also understand that was the scope of the study and that's where it ends..  Instead you're insinuating some ridiculous hair brain false narrative that the findings of this study somehow "may" apply to everyone.  

A lot of people are saying....

Yaaayy! Science says something I don't like so I don't have to listen to it! 

Off to bash climate change deniers/anti-gmo activists/anti-vaxxers!!!

Remember that every argument you have with someone on MWCboard is actually the continuation of a different argument they had with someone else also on MWCboard. 

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1 hour ago, RoscoesDad said:

I read the article and you are trying WAAAAAAAAAY too hard to make some sort of false generalization here.  It's a small sample size of a group of people who are already diagnosed with some type of mental illness.  The conclusion should be kept to the findings of the study (hint: THC may not be good for mental patients who have been institutionalized).  OK fine, I find even that debatable but I also understand that was the scope of the study and that's where it ends..  Instead you're insinuating some ridiculous hair brain false narrative that the findings of this study somehow "may" apply to everyone.  

A lot of people are saying....

What suggesting further studies?  Do you know one of the little known benefits of these articles, the sourced references.  Here is the section of previous research on cannabis and violence the authors of this study reviewed.  It was this lit review that made the authors write the quote above calling for further study.  Reviewing abstracts, there is evidence of increased aggression and violence among the general population as well.  Are these studies definitive, no, which is why they call for additional research.  My major point and thoughts is that I was surprised by the results of this study specifically cocaine and cannabis, and that the common thought of cannabis not resulting in an increase in aggression like alcohol doesn't exactly mesh with the research that is out there.  No insinuation beyond that.

Spoiler

18. Moore TM, Stuart GL. A review of the literature on marijuana and interpersonal violence. Aggress Violent Behav (2005) 10(2):171–92. doi:10.1016/j.avb.2003.10.002

CrossRef Full Text | Google Scholar

19. White HR, Hansell S. Acute and long-term effects of drug use on aggression from adolescence into adulthood. J Drug Issues (1998) 28(4):837–58. doi:10.1177/002204269802800402

CrossRef Full Text | Google Scholar

20. Brook JS, Balka EB, Whiteman M. The risks for late adolescence of early adolescent marijuana use. Am J Public Health (1999) 89(10):1549–54. doi:10.2105/AJPH.89.10.1549

PubMed Abstract | CrossRef Full Text | Google Scholar

21. Fergusson DM, Horwood L. Early onset cannabis use and psychosocial adjustment in young adults. Addiction (1997) 92(3):279–96. doi:10.1111/j.1360-0443.1997.tb03198.x

PubMed Abstract | CrossRef Full Text | Google Scholar

22. Marie D, Fergusson DM, Boden JM. Links between ethnic identification, cannabis use and dependence, and life outcomes in a New Zealand birth cohort. Aust N Z J Psychiatry (2008) 42(9):780–8. doi:10.1080/00048670802277289

CrossRef Full Text | Google Scholar

23. Friedman AS, Glassman K, Terras A. Violent behavior as related to use of marijuana and other drugs. J Addict Dis (2001) 20(1):49–72. doi:10.1300/J069v20n01_06

PubMed Abstract | CrossRef Full Text | Google Scholar

24. Friedman AS, Terras A, Glassman K. The differential disinhibition effect of marijuana use on violent behavior: a comparison of this effect on a conventional, non-delinquent group versus a delinquent or deviant group. J Addict Dis (2003) 22(3):63–78. doi:10.1300/J069v22n03_06

...

56. Wrege J, Schmidt A, Walter A, Smieskova R, Bendfeldt K, Radue EW, et al. Effects of cannabis on impulsivity: a systematic review of neuroimaging findings. Curr Pharm Des (2014) 20(13):2126–37. doi:10.2174/13816128113199990428

PubMed Abstract | CrossRef Full Text | Google Scholar

61. Gruber SA, Dahlgren MK, Sagar KA, Gönenç A, Lukas SE. Worth the wait: effects of age of onset of marijuana use on white matter and impulsivity. Psychopharmacology (2014) 231(8):1455–65. doi:10.1007/s00213-013-3326-z

PubMed Abstract | CrossRef Full Text | Google Scholar

62. Gruber SA, Sagar KA, Dahlgren MK, Racine M, Lukas SE. Age of onset of marijuana use and executive function. Psychol Addict Behav (2012) 26(3):496. doi:10.1037/a0026269

PubMed Abstract | CrossRef Full Text | Google Scholar

63. Brook JS, Zhang C, Brook DW. Antisocial behavior at age 37: developmental trajectories of marijuana use extending from adolescence to adulthood. Am J Addict(2011) 20(6):509–15. doi:10.1111/j.1521-0391.2011.00179.x

PubMed Abstract | CrossRef Full Text | Google Scholar

64. Jacobus J, Tapert SF. Effects of cannabis on the adolescent brain. Curr Pharm Des (2014) 20(13):2186–93. doi:10.2174/13816128113199990426

CrossRef Full Text | Google Scholar

 I even acknowledge the questions Sharktanked ask are valid and worthy of future studies.  I simply think there are other valid questions raised in this study such as this:
 

Quote

To conclude, our findings are relevant as they aid to shed light on the cannabis–violence association that has been less extensively studied amid psychiatric patients, in whom cannabis use is twice as prevalent in contrast to the general population (44). 

Maybe this means something, maybe it is nothing.  That is why I wrote "I think those [refering to sharktanked questions] are valid questions for future studies.  But along those lines I also think does cannabis use increase your chance for suffering psychiatric conditions is also a valid question for future studies."  That cannabis use is twice as prevalent in contrast to the general population raises questions that I think are worth exploring.  I have no clue what further studies will find.  Maybe just coincidence, maybe those suffering psychiatric conditions are more prone to seeking relief via drugs, maybe cannabis use changes the brain enough to increase chances of suffering psychiatric conditions, maybe nothing.  I don't know.  I am approaching this in about as genuinely as I can from a science perspective.  Science was once the quest to further knowledge to seek answers to genuine questions.  More and more it is now how can we use science to further our agenda.  

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2 minutes ago, Jimbo_Poke said:

What suggesting further studies?  Do you know one of the little known benefits of these articles, the sourced references.  Here is the section of previous research on cannabis and violence the authors of this study reviewed.  It was this lit review that made the authors write the quote above calling for further study.  Reviewing abstracts, there is evidence of increased aggression and violence among the general population as well.  Are these studies definitive, no, which is why they call for additional research.  My major point and thoughts is that I was surprised by the results of this study specifically cocaine and cannabis, and that the common thought of cannabis not resulting in an increase in aggression like alcohol doesn't exactly mesh with the research that is out there.  No insinuation beyond that.

  Reveal hidden contents

18. Moore TM, Stuart GL. A review of the literature on marijuana and interpersonal violence. Aggress Violent Behav (2005) 10(2):171–92. doi:10.1016/j.avb.2003.10.002

CrossRef Full Text | Google Scholar

19. White HR, Hansell S. Acute and long-term effects of drug use on aggression from adolescence into adulthood. J Drug Issues (1998) 28(4):837–58. doi:10.1177/002204269802800402

CrossRef Full Text | Google Scholar

20. Brook JS, Balka EB, Whiteman M. The risks for late adolescence of early adolescent marijuana use. Am J Public Health (1999) 89(10):1549–54. doi:10.2105/AJPH.89.10.1549

PubMed Abstract | CrossRef Full Text | Google Scholar

21. Fergusson DM, Horwood L. Early onset cannabis use and psychosocial adjustment in young adults. Addiction (1997) 92(3):279–96. doi:10.1111/j.1360-0443.1997.tb03198.x

PubMed Abstract | CrossRef Full Text | Google Scholar

22. Marie D, Fergusson DM, Boden JM. Links between ethnic identification, cannabis use and dependence, and life outcomes in a New Zealand birth cohort. Aust N Z J Psychiatry (2008) 42(9):780–8. doi:10.1080/00048670802277289

CrossRef Full Text | Google Scholar

23. Friedman AS, Glassman K, Terras A. Violent behavior as related to use of marijuana and other drugs. J Addict Dis (2001) 20(1):49–72. doi:10.1300/J069v20n01_06

PubMed Abstract | CrossRef Full Text | Google Scholar

24. Friedman AS, Terras A, Glassman K. The differential disinhibition effect of marijuana use on violent behavior: a comparison of this effect on a conventional, non-delinquent group versus a delinquent or deviant group. J Addict Dis (2003) 22(3):63–78. doi:10.1300/J069v22n03_06

...

56. Wrege J, Schmidt A, Walter A, Smieskova R, Bendfeldt K, Radue EW, et al. Effects of cannabis on impulsivity: a systematic review of neuroimaging findings. Curr Pharm Des (2014) 20(13):2126–37. doi:10.2174/13816128113199990428

PubMed Abstract | CrossRef Full Text | Google Scholar

61. Gruber SA, Dahlgren MK, Sagar KA, Gönenç A, Lukas SE. Worth the wait: effects of age of onset of marijuana use on white matter and impulsivity. Psychopharmacology (2014) 231(8):1455–65. doi:10.1007/s00213-013-3326-z

PubMed Abstract | CrossRef Full Text | Google Scholar

62. Gruber SA, Sagar KA, Dahlgren MK, Racine M, Lukas SE. Age of onset of marijuana use and executive function. Psychol Addict Behav (2012) 26(3):496. doi:10.1037/a0026269

PubMed Abstract | CrossRef Full Text | Google Scholar

63. Brook JS, Zhang C, Brook DW. Antisocial behavior at age 37: developmental trajectories of marijuana use extending from adolescence to adulthood. Am J Addict(2011) 20(6):509–15. doi:10.1111/j.1521-0391.2011.00179.x

PubMed Abstract | CrossRef Full Text | Google Scholar

64. Jacobus J, Tapert SF. Effects of cannabis on the adolescent brain. Curr Pharm Des (2014) 20(13):2186–93. doi:10.2174/13816128113199990426

CrossRef Full Text | Google Scholar

 I even acknowledge the questions Sharktanked ask are valid and worthy of future studies.  I simply think there are other valid questions raised in this study such as this:
 

Maybe this means something, maybe it is nothing.  That is why I wrote "I think those [refering to sharktanked questions] are valid questions for future studies.  But along those lines I also think does cannabis use increase your chance for suffering psychiatric conditions is also a valid question for future studies."  That cannabis use is twice as prevalent in contrast to the general population raises questions that I think are worth exploring.  I have no clue what further studies will find.  Maybe just coincidence, maybe those suffering psychiatric conditions are more prone to seeking relief via drugs, maybe cannabis use changes the brain enough to increase chances of suffering psychiatric conditions, maybe nothing.  I don't know.  I am approaching this in about as genuinely as I can from a science perspective.  Science was once the quest to further knowledge to seek answers to genuine questions.  More and more it is now how can we use science to further our agenda.  

I definitely agree there. I think this has caused everyone to become skeptical of science (in some cases, unreasonably). Increasingly it is bought and paid for to support a certain agenda. OTOH, maybe it always was?

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15 hours ago, Jimbo_Poke said:

 

  Hide contents

  Science was once the quest to further knowledge to seek answers to genuine questions.  More and more it is now how can we use science to further our agenda.  

I would "love" this if I could. The true definition of science has become muddled or perverted in the popular consciousness. "We know cocaine is bad so it HAS to cause more violence!" "Meth has to be worse than adderall despite the fact that the consumption method changes how the drug effects you enormously!" "Alcohol can't be bad, I have a beer every night!"

That thought becomes "let me find a study or fund a study that confirms my pre-existing bias".

No. That isn't science. Science is performing an experiment, making sure the results are repeatable, accepting the results, and trying to refine or expand on that knowledge. It doesn't matter how much technology you have or how rigorous your study is if you know what you are going to get at the end. That is not science. 

Remember that every argument you have with someone on MWCboard is actually the continuation of a different argument they had with someone else also on MWCboard. 

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41 minutes ago, happycamper said:

I would "love" this if I could. The true definition of science has become muddled or perverted in the popular consciousness. "We know cocaine is bad so it HAS to cause more violence!" "Meth has to be worse than adderall despite the fact that the consumption method changes how the drug effects you enormously!" "Alcohol can't be bad, I have a beer every night!"

That thought becomes "let me find a study or fund a study that confirms my pre-existing bias".

No. That isn't science. Science is performing an experiment, making sure the results are repeatable, accepting the results, and trying to refine or expand on that knowledge. It doesn't matter how much technology you have or how rigorous your study is if you know what you are going to get at the end. That is not science. 

Science is at least partially a cultural production 

 

nothing is objective 

On 12/1/2016 at 12:26 PM, WyomingCoog said:

I own a vehicle likely worth more than everything you own combined and just flew first class (including a ticket for a 2 1/2 year old), round trip to Las Vegas and I'm not 35 yet. When you accomplish something outside of finishing a book, let me know. When's the last time you saw a 2 year old fly first class in their own seat? Don't tell me about elite.  

28 minutes ago, NorCalCoug said:

I’d happily compare IQ’s with you any day of the week.

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1 minute ago, youngrebelfan40 said:

Science is at least partially a cultural production 

 

nothing is objective 

Math is. 

Remember that every argument you have with someone on MWCboard is actually the continuation of a different argument they had with someone else also on MWCboard. 

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1 hour ago, happycamper said:

Math is. 

Depends on the context 

 

Math itself as a practice may be but its utilization almost never is 

 

Then again, as there supposedly are things in the universe that cannot be directly explained by mathematics, it is altogether possible that the underlying assumptions of the practice may be an imperfect way to describe the world around us. Perhaps another intelligent species out there has a better system that as of now in inconceivable or not understandable by human beings that works better

 

On 12/1/2016 at 12:26 PM, WyomingCoog said:

I own a vehicle likely worth more than everything you own combined and just flew first class (including a ticket for a 2 1/2 year old), round trip to Las Vegas and I'm not 35 yet. When you accomplish something outside of finishing a book, let me know. When's the last time you saw a 2 year old fly first class in their own seat? Don't tell me about elite.  

28 minutes ago, NorCalCoug said:

I’d happily compare IQ’s with you any day of the week.

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