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mugtang

Trump is a moron

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24 minutes ago, sactowndog said:

People don't fight for their rights against benevolent kings.

I'm not familiar with how benevolent kings work.  In my office, my people are negotiating with me for their benefits, raises, rights, etc all the time.

The World Needs More Cowboys!

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19 minutes ago, pokebball said:

I'm not familiar with how benevolent kings work.  In my office, my people are negotiating with me for their benefits, raises, rights, etc all the time.

Well certainly not their rights.   Unless you don't believe our rights are god given.   

Raises etc.  sure.

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2 hours ago, sactowndog said:

No I just think all power should not reside in the business owner over things outside of the context of his business.   You on the other hand follow the Baron/Serf view of life, complete with your total disdain for those who work for you.

You think it should reside in the employee and the business owner should have no rights.  Yes I know, you have been saying it over and over Trump twin.

You have disdain for the rights of others just like Trump.

 

I don't take anyones rights away.  I do believe that while they are working for me they need to work for me.  If they want to work for themselves they have the same right I do to start their own business.

I have mentioned several times on this forum I retired when i was 39 because I didn't like working for other people.  The biggest part being I did not like have to do stupid things for stupid reasons.  If i was going to accept their employment though i had to accept their terms.  So I exercised the same freedom everyone has in this country.  I quit, and did my own thing, my own way.  I don't have to worry about getting fired over speech because I am the owner.  I am still subject to my employees, my customers and public opinion.  All rights even the owners rights have responsibilities.   

You just hate that you might be held responsible for your actions.  You want your rights and you want to impose them on me.  You want me to have no rights because you really don't like freedom.  You and Trump are twins with the exact same outlook on freedom.

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1 hour ago, bluerules009 said:

You think it should reside in the employee and the business owner should have no rights.  Yes I know, you have been saying it over and over Trump twin.

You have disdain for the rights of others just like Trump.

 

I don't take anyones rights away.  I do believe that while they are working for me they need to work for me.  If they want to work for themselves they have the same right I do to start their own business.

I have mentioned several times on this forum I retired when i was 39 because I didn't like working for other people.  The biggest part being I did not like have to do stupid things for stupid reasons.  If i was going to accept their employment though i had to accept their terms.  So I exercised the same freedom everyone has in this country.  I quit, and did my own thing, my own way.  I don't have to worry about getting fired over speech because I am the owner.  I am still subject to my employees, my customers and public opinion.  All rights even the owners rights have responsibilities.   

You just hate that you might be held responsible for your actions.  You want your rights and you want to impose them on me.  You want me to have no rights because you really don't like freedom.  You and Trump are twins with the exact same outlook on freedom.

Nice try tools.   I have been quite clear that the business person has full rights to do as he pleases in the instances where behavior occurs in the course of business or representing his business.   Hardly all the rights to an employee.

btw Tools if I'm the Trump twin why do you and he hold the same position?

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Interesting topic you have going on here ... 

I have not read though everything, but both sides are going to have to accept that employee rights differ from state to state. That means there is a balance in every state between the rights of both employers and employees. No employer or employee has absolute rights regarding employment.

Employee conduct is covered by either their contract or by employee handbook. No employer may make a rule that abridges the rights of an employee that is enumerated in either state or federal law, rule or guidelines. Further, any conduct that is not expressly prohibited by the employee handbook, contract, or state/federal law is not grounds for termination with cause.

I hope this helps your debate.

 

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10 hours ago, tspoke said:

I'm just getting caught up on this discussion, but yes I do. I am not comfortable with it. I don't like how people get doxed and fired from their jobs. It is a slippery slope but what is the alternative? Create a law preventing businesses from firing people based on things they say in public or online? That's even worse and taking away the rights of the owners of the company. If a bar tender at a small town bartender went to one of those Nazi rallies and gave a speech praising Hitler, trashing jews and all minorities basically saying all the worst things you can imagine and it went viral on TV and over the internet. Are you suggesting the bar owner should be forced to keep the bar tender employed even though everyone in this town knows who the guy is and that he bar tends at your bar and they won't come in for a drink anymore if he is bartending? Or another example, A guy works at a small store that sells religious trinkets/gifts and other items. He posts a satanic video(or insert whatever type of video would be most offensive to religious people). The store shouldn't be allowed to fire him even though customers stopped showing up and your business is going under?

Are these examples extreme? Sure but so is the other side. I haven't seen any examples of people losing their jobs for exercising their rights outside of work except for the true assholes...yet. If it starts getting worse then I might become concerned but I think it is self regulating and there would be a pushback if people started getting fired for expressing fairly mainstream views.

Should people lose their jobs for their beliefs? no I don't think so but once you put them out into social media or the public they are no longer just beliefs they are actions.

By the way in case you think no one could ever be fired due to being Muslim or a gay due to their sexual orientation.....

I will point out Alabama just voted to send, for all intensive purposes, the good Christian Roy Moore to the US Senate.   The same man willing to ignore the rulings of our Federal court.   

Merlene Bohannon, a widow with three grown children, said she had planned to vote for Strange until seeing Bannon stump for Moore on Fox News on Monday night.

"Steve Bannon and God spoke to me, and this morning when I went in I voted for Moore," said Bohannon, 74.

 

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55 minutes ago, sactowndog said:

Nice try tools.   I have been quite clear that the business person has full rights to do as he pleases in the instances where behavior occurs in the course of business or representing his business.   Hardly all the rights to an employee.

btw Tools if I'm the Trump twin why do you and he hold the same position?

You hold the same position as Trump, unlike me both of you are scared of other people's rights and hate freedom.   You want rights but no responsibilities and definitely no one else having any rights.  You not only want your rights you want to use your employer's ink.

I hold the position that everyone has the same rights and responsibilities.  The exact opposite of you and your twin Trump.

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1 hour ago, sactowndog said:

Nice try tools.   I have been quite clear that the business person has full rights to do as he pleases in the instances where behavior occurs in the course of business or representing his business.   Hardly all the rights to an employee.

btw Tools if I'm the Trump twin why do you and he hold the same position?

You've ignored the article where the neo Nazi was fired for attending the Charlottesville rally. Why is he entitled to continued employment until the business goes bankrupt?

We’re all sitting in the dugout. Thinking we should pitch. How you gonna throw a shutout when all you do is bitch.

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53 minutes ago, thelawlorfaithful said:

You've ignored the article where the neo Nazi was fired for attending the Charlottesville rally. Why is he entitled to continued employment until the business goes bankrupt?

Obviously it's the most extreme example as we agree his views are repugnant....

but here is my view on this....   

in the example you shared the views appeared to be attributed to the owner.  The owner has other means to make clear he doesn't share those views without firing the man....

for example, as a service business he could make said person wait on Jews and blacks all day and be pleasant no matter what they say to him.  If the population knows he can't fire a person for something outside of the work context, they will look for other ways for the employer to disavow the beliefs and statements within the law.  It is also is fair for the owner to be clear if he gets even a hint of said beliefs being manifested in the work environment the employee will be fired immediately.    

At the end of the day, to me, this best balances everyone's rights.   It has no slippery slope.  It also offers the best hope of change and reconciliation as a society to move past the ugliness we see today.   Vigilante justice, even when executed via the hands of an employer rarely leaves the country better off.   And that is what doxing and getting people fired is.... vigilante justice.

i get I'm not changing your mind and your not changing mine.   This discussion is mostly for others reading this thread that aren't bored with it already.

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50 minutes ago, sactowndog said:

Obviously it's the most extreme example as we agree his views are repugnant....

but here is my view on this....   

in the example you shared the views appeared to be attributed to the owner.  The owner has other means to make clear he doesn't share those views without firing the man....

for example, as a service business he could make said person wait on Jews and blacks all day and be pleasant no matter what they say to him.  If the population knows he can't fire a person for something outside of the work context, they will look for other ways for the employer to disavow the beliefs and statements within the law.  It is also is fair for the owner to be clear if he gets even a hint of said beliefs being manifested in the work environment the employee will be fired immediately.    

At the end of the day, to me, this best balances everyone's rights.   It has no slippery slope.  It also offers the best hope of change and reconciliation as a society to move past the ugliness we see today.   Vigilante justice, even when executed via the hands of an employer rarely leaves the country better off.   And that is what doxing and getting people fired is.... vigilante justice.

i get I'm not changing your mind and your not changing mine.   This discussion is mostly for others reading this thread that aren't bored with it already.

Why would blacks and Jews come to eat a hot dog served by a Nazi? There is zero logic in your hypothesis that people will stop caring if the business can't fire the guy. They'll take their money elsewhere and the entire business will close up shop, everybody laid off, and the owner substantially poorer because his rights have been lit on fire so that a proud white supremacist could get a few more paychecks.

We’re all sitting in the dugout. Thinking we should pitch. How you gonna throw a shutout when all you do is bitch.

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45 minutes ago, sactowndog said:

Obviously it's the most extreme example as we agree his views are repugnant....

but here is my view on this....   

in the example you shared the views appeared to be attributed to the owner.  The owner has other means to make clear he doesn't share those views without firing the man....

for example, as a service business he could make said person wait on Jews and blacks all day and be pleasant no matter what they say to him.  If the population knows he can't fire a person for something outside of the work context, they will look for other ways for the employer to disavow the beliefs and statements within the law.  It is also is fair for the owner to be clear if he gets even a hint of said beliefs being manifested in the work environment the employee will be fired immediately.    

At the end of the day, to me, this best balances everyone's rights.   It has no slippery slope.  It also offers the best hope of change and reconciliation as a society to move past the ugliness we see today.   Vigilante justice, even when executed via the hands of an employer rarely leaves the country better off.   And that is what doxing and getting people fired is.... vigilante justice.

i get I'm not changing your mind and your not changing mine.   This discussion is mostly for others reading this thread that aren't bored with it already.

If one of my employees is pictured at a Nazi march he/she is getting fired. In my part of the world, the same thing would happen if you were pictured at an anti-gay rally or an anti-immigrant rally. Why should I have to take the time and trouble to force the Nazi to interact with blacks and Jews? Those folks are customers. I want their experience to be as pleasant as possible. I'm not running a rehab center for haters. I'm running a business. If an employee can't conform to the required norms, they're gone. 

Thay Haif Said: Quhat Say Thay? Lat Thame Say

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8 hours ago, thelawlorfaithful said:

Why would blacks and Jews come to eat a hot dog served by a Nazi? There is zero logic in your hypothesis that people will stop caring if the business can't fire the guy. They'll take their money elsewhere and the entire business will close up shop, everybody laid off, and the owner substantially poorer because his rights have been lit on fire so that a proud white supremacist could get a few more paychecks.

We disagree, I think people are more discerning then that.   But then I also believe high school juniors and seniors are capable of making informed decisions about protesting.    

Perhaps we just have a fundamental disagreement about people that will never be resolved.

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8 hours ago, Old_SD_Dude said:

If one of my employees is pictured at a Nazi march he/she is getting fired. In my part of the world, the same thing would happen if you were pictured at an anti-gay rally or an anti-immigrant rally. Why should I have to take the time and trouble to force the Nazi to interact with blacks and Jews? Those folks are customers. I want their experience to be as pleasant as possible. I'm not running a rehab center for haters. I'm running a business. If an employee can't conform to the required norms, they're gone. 

Right and you're imposing your values on something that has no direct connection to your business.  And in Judge Moore's Alabama they may some day do the same thing to a person who attends a gay rights parade or attends a mosque.  It's basically two sides of the same coin.   

We are quickly reverting to the baron serf model where those that own the means of production dictate beliefs to those who work it or else.   

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9 hours ago, Old_SD_Dude said:

If one of my employees is pictured at a Nazi march he/she is getting fired. In my part of the world, the same thing would happen if you were pictured at an anti-gay rally or an anti-immigrant rally. Why should I have to take the time and trouble to force the Nazi to interact with blacks and Jews? Those folks are customers. I want their experience to be as pleasant as possible. I'm not running a rehab center for haters. I'm running a business. If an employee can't conform to the required norms, they're gone. 

One other point.   I never said you couldn't fire the person if the customers experience wasn't a pleasant as possible...  but the "Nazi" would have to actually do something in the context of business to make it so.

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33 minutes ago, sactowndog said:

One other point.   I never said you couldn't fire the person if the customers experience wasn't a pleasant as possible...  but the "Nazi" would have to actually do something in the context of business to make it so.

Nope. Not in my world. In my judgement as a business manager a Jew being served by a known Nazi would be unpleasant. In your world OJ would still be the superstar of rent-a-car. 

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11 hours ago, sactowndog said:

By the way in case you think no one could ever be fired due to being Muslim or a gay due to their sexual orientation.....

I will point out Alabama just voted to send, for all intensive purposes, the good Christian Roy Moore to the US Senate.   The same man willing to ignore the rulings of our Federal court.   

Merlene Bohannon, a widow with three grown children, said she had planned to vote for Strange until seeing Bannon stump for Moore on Fox News on Monday night.

"Steve Bannon and God spoke to me, and this morning when I went in I voted for Moore," said Bohannon, 74.

 

Those are protected classes and there is a big difference between being fired for your beliefs vs being fired for your actions. Being Muslim is different than participating in a Nazi rally. And if they try to change the laws they will have quite a fight through the SC which I'm not to worried about.

I don't buy your idea that people will just continue to patronize a place if they know the place of employment can't fire them. If I found out a bartender at a bar in my town was a Nazi(or insert whatever horrible thing that would offend you to the core) by him posting something on social media or being put on TV giving some speech, I wouldn't go there even if I knew the owner wanted to fire him but couldn't. I don't want to socialize with that person.

I am not ok with the government forcing small businesses to go bankrupt because they can't make their own personnel decisions.

I also don't see the firing of people for things they do outside of work becoming an issue except for the truly reprehensible. I have faith in people that there would be a pushback against this if people were getting fired for participating in in relatively mainstream events.

You have faith that people would continue to patronize a place if the owner couldn't fire people and I have faith that people(and owners) will pushback if it goes to far with the trying to get people fired.

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28 minutes ago, sactowndog said:

Right and you're imposing your values on something that has no direct connection to your business.  And in Judge Moore's Alabama they may some day do the same thing to a person who attends a gay rights parade or attends a mosque.  It's basically two sides of the same coin.   

We are quickly reverting to the baron serf model where those that own the means of production dictate beliefs to those who work it or else.   

You're right. I'm imposing my values and those, in my estimation, of the vast majority of my customers. If I'm wrong, my business will suffer. 

Thay Haif Said: Quhat Say Thay? Lat Thame Say

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9 minutes ago, Old_SD_Dude said:

Nope. Not in my world. In my judgement as a business manager a Jew being served by a known Nazi would be unpleasant. In your world OJ would still be the superstar of rent-a-car. 

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That OJ line dropped my jaw it was so good.

We’re all sitting in the dugout. Thinking we should pitch. How you gonna throw a shutout when all you do is bitch.

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Maybe the silver lining is that this hyper divisiveness will get some money out of politics. Businesses will be so afraid of the economic backlash of financially supporting anything.  Or maybe the converse will be true and we'll end up with a strongly bifurcated business sector.  Liberal and conservative stores where never the twain shall meet. Like Target versus Wal-Mart on steroids.

God bless us all as the world is changing much faster than we can handle right now.

 

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