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BYU has very little talent.....

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2 minutes ago, madmartigan said:

When someone says "you'll never convince me otherwise" about something, it's best to quit arguing the point. They've already told you they're set where they are and nothing you present will change their mind. 

Nah, Norcal and I go way back... He's just thick headed... He will see the light eventually.. He just won't admit it...:idiot:

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Many of the CB crowd are ready to dump Sitake, Detmer and Mangum and arguing that going with Anae would have produced better results. We have mostly more rational BYU fans left here ( other than some socks posing as fans of other teams ). I would be interested to hear your take on these guys. 

My take:

Talking about getting rid of Sitake seems crazy. He has a 10-5 overall record as a head coach, and has at least maintained the level of defense that Bronco left the team with.

Mangum/Detmer - a bit dicier. If BYU cannot generate any offense against Utah and/or Wisconsin they may need to try another QB just to change things up. If that happens, but Mangum is so clearly the better QB that they can't sub, they are in a rough spot. As for Detmer, you have to give him at least to the end of the year, however the problem is that if the offense starts working against inferior teams, it may only be due to superior talent. If the offense does not turn around this year against some of the better teams, I doubt Detmer is fired, but I think he would be on the hotseat next year.

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1 hour ago, utenation said:

OK, what are you using to define as much better? If BYU is losing 60% of their games to P5 teams how does that make them above the bottom? As mentioned, 40% gets coaches fired in the big leagues.

If you want to argue facilities etc, I don't disagree... But you said performance doesn't agree with me...

Performance doesn't agree with you.  Take the bottom schools from each P5 league and look at their W/L record over the last few years and look at their record against P5 teams.  It is worse than BYU's.  That's an easy starting point.  As a Ute fan I understand that you want to believe that BYU is on par with programs like Duke, Vanderbilt, and Kansas, etc. but you know deep down inside that's BS whether you'll admit it or not.  BYU would be a middling P5 program RIGHT NOW in most P5 conferences.  Some years they'd be high middle and others low middle but they wouldn't be bottom tier fodder.  I don't personally believe BYU would get as big of a recruiting bump from P5 membership that most programs would b/c of the recruiting limitations, recruiting pool, honor code, etc. but there would be some improvement nonetheless if they can land just a handful of the top LDS talent that may go elsewhere today. 

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25 minutes ago, Mano said:

Many of the CB crowd are ready to dump Sitake, Detmer and Mangum and arguing that going with Anae would have produced better results. We have mostly more rational BYU fans left here ( other than some socks posing as fans of other teams ). I would be interested to hear your take on these guys. 

My take:

Talking about getting rid of Sitake seems crazy. He has a 10-5 overall record as a head coach, and has at least maintained the level of defense that Bronco left the team with.

Mangum/Detmer - a bit dicier. If BYU cannot generate any offense against Utah and/or Wisconsin they may need to try another QB just to change things up. If that happens, but Mangum is so clearly the better QB that they can't sub, they are in a rough spot. As for Detmer, you have to give him at least to the end of the year, however the problem is that if the offense starts working against inferior teams, it may only be due to superior talent. If the offense does not turn around this year against some of the better teams, I doubt Detmer is fired, but I think he would be on the hotseat next year.

You overstate the general sentiment of CB...  again, a few vocal extremist posters do not speak for the general sentiment of the board.  Every board has its idiots and CB is no exception - though the idiot ratio may be a bit higher there. 

My take:

Anyone calling for the head of Sitake and/or Detmer at this point is a buffoon.  I'm not surprised the defense is outperforming the offense at this point as the cupboard was much better stocked when Sitake took over.  Detmer definitely has the tougher job with rebuilding the offense.  Offensive line recruiting has been subpar for several years now and recruiting has been more geared towards Anae's GFGH as opposed to Detmer's pro-style where OL and running game are essential.  It all begins there.  Detmer needs at least another full season at a minimum to show some progress before his seat gets hot IMO.

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52 minutes ago, NorCalCoug said:

Performance doesn't agree with you.  Take the bottom schools from each P5 league and look at their W/L record over the last few years and look at their record against P5 teams.  It is worse than BYU's.  That's an easy starting point.  As a Ute fan I understand that you want to believe that BYU is on par with programs like Duke, Vanderbilt, and Kansas, etc. but you know deep down inside that's BS whether you'll admit it or not.  BYU would be a middling P5 program RIGHT NOW in most P5 conferences.  Some years they'd be high middle and others low middle but they wouldn't be bottom tier fodder.  I don't personally believe BYU would get as big of a recruiting bump from P5 membership that most programs would b/c of the recruiting limitations, recruiting pool, honor code, etc. but there would be some improvement nonetheless if they can land just a handful of the top LDS talent that may go elsewhere today. 

Obviously we are both speculating  here but winning 40% of your games is not very competitive.  There is no hiding that stat.

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1 hour ago, Mano said:

Many of the CB crowd are ready to dump Sitake, Detmer and Mangum and arguing that going with Anae would have produced better results. We have mostly more rational BYU fans left here ( other than some socks posing as fans of other teams ). I would be interested to hear your take on these guys. 

My take:

Talking about getting rid of Sitake seems crazy. He has a 10-5 overall record as a head coach, and has at least maintained the level of defense that Bronco left the team with.

Mangum/Detmer - a bit dicier. If BYU cannot generate any offense against Utah and/or Wisconsin they may need to try another QB just to change things up. If that happens, but Mangum is so clearly the better QB that they can't sub, they are in a rough spot. As for Detmer, you have to give him at least to the end of the year, however the problem is that if the offense starts working against inferior teams, it may only be due to superior talent. If the offense does not turn around this year against some of the better teams, I doubt Detmer is fired, but I think he would be on the hotseat next year.

I think Sitake will be fine long term.  I think it was a solid hire and he seems to be a good rep for the LDS Church.  He's a good recruiter, level headed and I think his philosophy of a pro-style offense is the right call (although they seem void of a lot of offensive talent at present).  I think Magnum is good when he has a few quality receivers and a good running game.  They really need another Jamal Willis type who can take the pressure off of the QB, maybe they have one and he just hasn't emerged yet.

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2 hours ago, utenation said:

Obviously we are both speculating  here but winning 40% of your games is not very competitive.  There is no hiding that stat.

Isn't middle of the pack 50%?  It's not that far off from my "middling" description.  Certainly not evidence of being the bottom tier you're suggesting.

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4 hours ago, NorCalCoug said:

You overstate the general sentiment of CB...  again, a few vocal extremist posters do not speak for the general sentiment of the board. 

 

4 hours ago, Mano said:

Many of the CB crowd are ready to dump Sitake, Detmer and Mangum and arguing that going with Anae would have produced better results.

I said nothing of the general sentiment or majority, just that many were expressing the above sentiment there. I don't think that is an "overstatement".

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The shit has hit the fan

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On 9/3/2017 at 3:14 PM, Headbutt said:

I thought there was something like that, but this dude got one in the last game of '16 and the first of '17.

They would consider that two different seasons but yeah I thought if you kept doing it, the penalties got worse.

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4 hours ago, utenation said:

Obviously we are both speculating  here but winning 40% of your games is not very competitive.  There is no hiding that stat.

Just out of curiosity, where does Utah fit in that P5 schematic since joining the PAC?

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5 hours ago, utenation said:

 

I think it's funny that the best you could find was 2015 numbers to support your claim...LOL.. I think it's safe to assume BYU has increased their budget since 2015... I don't think it's a stretch for me to claim BYU would be in the lower half of P5 budgets considering there's plenty of programs in the mid 70 million-low 80 million range. They also have P5 facilities... Bottom line, I don't think BYU lacks in resources to compete in football... And yes, I've seen BYU fans wave the we have money flag over and over to fans on this board..

 

As far as Utah.. Meh... I wasn't comparing.. Strictly sticking with BYU here and their 40% win rate against P5 progams but I'm glad you've enjoyed your moral victories over Utah for nearly a decade.   

So, still no examples.  That's what I thought.

 

5 hours ago, Mano said:

Many of the CB crowd are ready to dump Sitake, Detmer and Mangum and arguing that going with Anae would have produced better results. We have mostly more rational BYU fans left here ( other than some socks posing as fans of other teams ). I would be interested to hear your take on these guys. 

My take:

Talking about getting rid of Sitake seems crazy. He has a 10-5 overall record as a head coach, and has at least maintained the level of defense that Bronco left the team with.

Mangum/Detmer - a bit dicier. If BYU cannot generate any offense against Utah and/or Wisconsin they may need to try another QB just to change things up. If that happens, but Mangum is so clearly the better QB that they can't sub, they are in a rough spot. As for Detmer, you have to give him at least to the end of the year, however the problem is that if the offense starts working against inferior teams, it may only be due to superior talent. If the offense does not turn around this year against some of the better teams, I doubt Detmer is fired, but I think he would be on the hotseat next year.

BYU's requirement that its head coaches be members of the church in good standing severely limits the potential coaching pool, Another limiting factor is that BYU collects much less revenue than most P5 programs.  The majority of P5 programs collect 50%+ more in revenue than BYU and can afford to pay their coaching staff more than what BYU allocates.  So BYU will have a hard time getting the most coveted coaches to Provo - they couldn't even convince Kyle to take the job.

So compared to who else they reasonably could have hired, I don't have any problem with Sitake and think it's pretty crazy to be calling for his job at this point.  Assistant coaches are not required to be members of the church, so there's a little more leeway there, but it's probably still difficult to bring in proven guys to coach in such a unique environment.  Still, in spite of the frustration with the offense, I am not close to calling for Detmer's firing.

As for Anae potentially producing better results, he may have - in the short term.  I don't ever remember hearing about Dr. Anae's recruiting prowess.  So he might have gotten more out of the guys on the roster, but the talent on the roster would likely have dwindled over time.  Additionally, there's no way to know what he would have done with the defense - who would he have been able to hire to coordinate that side of the ball?  Would we have been incrementally better on offense but significantly worse on defense?

There has been a lot of overreacting so far.  Yes, the offense has under-performed (putting it gently), but the season is young.  We are replacing our all-time leading rusher (though I believe Harvey Unga still had a higher average per game), and most of the receiving core is brand new, too.  

I think Mangum should be further ahead than he's shown so far.  He had pretty much a full season of starting experience plus he had all last season to learn the new offense (even though they did run the read option a lot last year).  But maybe there's just no substitute for reps in the offense.  If he continues to struggle, then I'm fine with the coaches bringing in Beau Hoge or any of the other backups.

The running game has been pretty disappointing.  I was expecting to amass huge rushing numbers against Portland State - didn't happen (in part because of penalties that negated some big runs).  I didn't think we'd run for a lot of yards against LSU, but I did expect more than -5, even with a couple of RBs getting injured during the game.  One of the guys that I thought could make a big difference this season after redshirting last year (Stunner's favorite - Riley Burt) just got moved to cornerback.

So I'm disappointed in the offense, relatively encouraged by the defense, and not willing to fire any coaches...yet.

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9 minutes ago, Del Scorcho said:

this is mean spirited, I don't approve

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This is one I haven't seen yet.  I thought it was funny and actually in good taste.  Unfortunately, about 50% of the humor will be lost to the majority on this board.  Nonetheless, funny stuff.  Are donuts and red punch served at the Nourishment and Strengthening Center?

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22 hours ago, NorCalCoug said:

Isn't middle of the pack 50%?  It's not that far off from my "middling" description.  Certainly not evidence of being the bottom tier you're suggesting.

Over the 5-year span from the 2012 to 2016 seasons, BYU is 11-13 against regular season P5 opponents. That's a 46% winning percentage. Average score is BYU 25.6, P5 Opp 22.6. Only four of the losses were by more than 7 points. Six of the losses were by 3 points or fewer. Seven of BYU's P5 wins were by 14 points or more.

During this same 5-year span, 20 P5 programs have won fewer than 40% of their P5 conference games. So, based on the record v. P5 opponents measuring stick, BYU is above at least one-third of the P5. The list includes the usual suspects like Kansas, Iowa St., Purdue, Kentucky, Vanderbilt, Oregon St., etc. and includes some potential surprises, such as Tennessee, Texas Tech, NC State, Arkansas, Boston College, Cal, and Colorado.

The list extends to 30 P5 programs (about 47% of the P5) that have won fewer than half of their P5 conference games...essentially the same winning percentage versus P5 opponents as BYU. This expanded list includes Utah, Auburn, Arizona, West Virginia, South Carolina, Ole Miss, Missouri, Duke, Washington St., Minnesota. (these schools won 42-49% of P5 conference games).

The next group of 50-55% P5 winning percentage (5 programs)includes Texas, Texas A&M, Georgia Tech, Mississippi St., and Pitt. 

It's not surprising to note that in recent seasons, BYU is 8-8 against the teams in the 40%-55% P5 win-percent range - beating 6 of these teams (some twice) and losing to 4 of them (one multiple times - dirty Ewetes....). 

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13 minutes ago, YNot said:

Over the 5-year span from the 2012 to 2016 seasons, BYU is 11-13 against regular season P5 opponents. That's a 46% winning percentage.

During this same 5-year span, 20 P5 programs have won fewer than 40% of their P5 conference games. So, based on the record v. P5 opponents measuring stick, BYU is above at least one-third of the P5. The list includes the usual suspects like Kansas, Iowa St., Purdue, Kentucky, Vanderbilt, Oregon St., etc. and includes some potential surprises, such as Tennessee, Texas Tech, NC State, Arkansas, Boston College, Cal, and Colorado.

The list extends to 30 P5 programs (about 47% of the P5) that have won fewer than half of their P5 conference games...essentially the same winning percentage versus P5 opponents as BYU. This expanded list includes Utah, Auburn, Arizona, West Virginia, South Carolina, Ole Miss, Missouri, Duke, Washington St., Minnesota. (these schools won 42-49% of P5 conference games).

The next group of 50-55% P5 winning percentage (5 programs)includes Texas, Texas A&M, Georgia Tech, Mississippi St., and Pitt. 

It's not surprising to note that in recent seasons, BYU is 8-8 against the teams in the 40%-55% P5 win-percent range - beating 6 of these teams (some twice) and losing to 4 of them (one multiple times - dirty Ewetes....).

Like I said, BYU is on par with a middling P5 program right now.  Performance agrees with that statement.  To suggest BYU would be a bottom feeder is yewt-speak during rivalry week at its finest.

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34 minutes ago, YNot said:

Over the 5-year span from the 2012 to 2016 seasons, BYU is 11-13 against regular season P5 opponents. That's a 46% winning percentage.

why throw out the bowl games?  

Is it because that lowers your winning to 42% and raises Utah's over 50%?

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30 minutes ago, NorCalCoug said:

Like I said, BYU is on par with a middling P5 program right now.  Performance agrees with that statement.  To suggest BYU would be a bottom feeder is yewt-speak during rivalry week at its finest.

Not to rain on your parade, but BYU has only beaten 1 P5 team that finished with a winning record since they went indy. 

BYU can go around .500 against P5 teams with losing records.

I'm a desperate man
Send lawyers, guns, and money
The shit has hit the fan

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