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renoskier

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53 minutes ago, nomascows said:

How do you justify living your own life on land taken via genocide from the Native Americans?

Where I live the Spanish did a pretty good job before we got here. We stole it from the Mexicans.

Thay Haif Said: Quhat Say Thay? Lat Thame Say

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Well, if I follow this thought re: FDR/others and similarities or not to Confederate monuments and their value as a learning tool... My thought is this, are we aware of the horrible interment because we visited the FDR memorial? Or is that information most of us knew regardless if the memorial was there or not? Do we know that US treatment of First Nations was horrible before visiting Mount Rushmore, or is that information we don't glean until we are there?

I get the argument that these are educational, take it down we'll forget, I'm just not a buyer. If there's no context or in a place where people are trying to learn more, there's little educational value.

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3 hours ago, SharkTanked said:

Are you of Japanese-American heritage? Just curious.

Overall, though, I do agree that monuments are an important teacher of our history. However, I also think such monuments depicting one of the darkest aspects of our history, which we are still trying to overcome, should not be placed in an environment to be revered or confronted daily, such as in front of a courthouse, park or government building meant to carry out the people's business. I agree that they should rightfully be placed in a museum dedicated to the study of slavery and the Civil War. They should be centralized there for study and deeper understanding. When history is forgotten (or erased) we may be doomed to repeat it.

Slavery is a stain on our national consciousness and every generation has its own way of coming to terms with that heritage. Now that we just had the run of our first black president, these thoughts seem to be at the fore. I would just argue that we try to respond with reason and enlightenment rather than emotion. Unfortunately, that ship seems to have sailed in our society now.

Until the Obama presidency, I had thought that we were expunging racism from our society with each successive generation. What has happened since his first election has shown me is that in some areas of this country that racism is a proud heritage carried on through generations, taught to children young and kept alive as long as possible. As long as that persists, the country will never move forward, and that is a depressing thought.

I'm German and Irish descent. When I was growing up a friend of mine's grandparents were interned in Manzanar. He and his wife were both born in America to Japanese immigrants. I was very interested in history especially World War II. His grandfather explained to me what life was like in those camps. He eventually served in the all Nisei 442nd Regimental Combat Team in Europe. He explained to me that they all thought of themselves as Americans and could not understand why they were interned. Even after that he fought the Germans even while they endured racial abuse from other US Army soldiers at first. After the 442nd became one of the most decorated units in the US military there was respect from the white soldiers they served with. He never lost his love for America even after the racist treatment they endured. His sister died at Manzanar. I learned from him at a young age how America isn't perfect but we can accept the wrongs we have done in the past and still move on and try to form a more perfect union. America is an idea. Without that idea what else seperates us from eveyone else?   

This idea is why I am in favor of keeping staues and monuments up of Confederates. These men were flawed, like all men. But they were Americans first, and became Americans again. Slavery was a horror that will always remain a brutal part of our history. But also in that history is the example that we could not work out our differences and went to war over them. A war that was the most brutal and costliest in terms of casualties in American history. When I visit the South and see Confederate monuments or visit national cemeteries in Missouri and Arlington and see the Confederate graves next to Union graves it reminds me what happens when we don't have civil discourse and resort to violence to solve our issues. This cannot happen again. When you tear down that history to me at least you are ignoring a brutal part of our history that needs to be remembered so we do not repeat it.

 

 

 

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16 minutes ago, Rebelbacker said:

I'm German and Irish descent. When I was growing up a friend of mine's grandparents were interned in Manzanar. He and his wife were both born in America to Japanese immigrants. I was very interested in history especially World War II. His grandfather explained to me what life was like in those camps. He eventually served in the all Nisei 442nd Regimental Combat Team in Europe. He explained to me that they all thought of themselves as Americans and could not understand why they were interned. Even after that he fought the Germans even while they endured racial abuse from other US Army soldiers at first. After the 442nd became one of the most decorated units in the US military there was respect from the white soldiers they served with. He never lost his love for America even after the racist treatment they endured. His sister died at Manzanar. I learned from him at a young age how America isn't perfect but we can accept the wrongs we have done in the past and still move on and try to form a more perfect union. America is an idea. Without that idea what else seperates us from eveyone else?   

This idea is why I am in favor of keeping staues and monuments up of Confederates. These men were flawed, like all men. But they were Americans first, and became Americans again. Slavery was a horror that will always remain a brutal part of our history. But also in that history is the example that we could not work out our differences and went to war over them. A war that was the most brutal and costliest in terms of casualties in American history. When I visit the South and see Confederate monuments or visit national cemeteries in Missouri and Arlington and see the Confederate graves next to Union graves it reminds me what happens when we don't have civil discourse and resort to violence to solve our issues. This cannot happen again. When you tear down that history to me at least you are ignoring a brutal part of our history that needs to be remembered so we do not repeat it.

 

 

 

Thanks for the story about your friend's Grandparents. It is similar to ones I have heard about those who lived through the internment. They never gave up on the country even though we did such horrible things to them. Such an incredible example of just what is missing from our society today.

The bolded is where I disagree. The crux of the Civil War was over the definition of what America is and will become. In that sense, the Confederates were never Americans. They believed in, and died for, a vision of American that was unacceptable to the rest and lost. In that sense, they were never truly Americans and those who share their sympathies are not either.

I do agree on the importance of the monuments, but I also agree that some were resurrected for the wrong reasons, and probably should not be afforded the place of honor that many of them hold.

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1 hour ago, SFtoVA said:

Well, if I follow this thought re: FDR/others and similarities or not to Confederate monuments and their value as a learning tool... My thought is this, are we aware of the horrible interment because we visited the FDR memorial? Or is that information most of us knew regardless if the memorial was there or not? Do we know that US treatment of First Nations was horrible before visiting Mount Rushmore, or is that information we don't glean until we are there?

I get the argument that these are educational, take it down we'll forget, I'm just not a buyer. If there's no context or in a place where people are trying to learn more, there's little educational value.

Yes we already know the story and information, but sometimes it takes a visual to truly bring home the power of the knowledge. For some people it has more impact and value than others.

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22 hours ago, SJSUMFA2013 said:

I'm not at all saying that all white people are racist. I am saying that it would be fair for a black person to be suspicious of white people working inside a building outside of which stonewall Jackson has stood watch for the better part of a century.

The very fact that you don't see that significance is an extension of privilege. The express purpose of the majority of these statues and monuments was to intimidate people of color and make sure they remembered their place. It has +++++-all to do with history or "heritage." 

So are you going to vote for democrats who are now fighting for the same thing Stonewall Jackson fought for?  Or are you a hypocrite, oh wait... we already know the answer.

https://www.economist.com/news/united-states/21715039-americas-most-progressive-state-set-lead-new-fight-against-federal

Democrats are learning to invoke states’ rights

At the same time Democrats, who over the last half-century have zealously defended sacrosanct federal laws - such as the Civil Rights Act of 1964 that tackled segregation - against arguments that states should be allowed to chart their own way, are now making plans to employ some of those very states' rights positions to fend off Trump administration policies they disagree with.

http://www.businessinsider.com/democrats-and-republicans-switched-sides-on-states-rights-2017-1

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4 minutes ago, SharkTanked said:

Thanks for the story about your friend's Grandparents. It is similar to ones I have heard about those who lived through the internment. They never gave up on the country even though we did such horrible things to them. Such an incredible example of just what is missing from our society today.

The bolded is where I disagree. The crux of the Civil War was over the definition of what America is and will become. In that sense, the Confederates were never Americans. They believed in, and died for, a vision of American that was unacceptable to the rest and lost. In that sense, they were never truly Americans and those who share their sympathies are not either.

I do agree on the importance of the monuments, but I also agree that some were resurrected for the wrong reasons, and probably should not be afforded the place of honor that many of them hold.

I disagree with you on them not being Americans. Everyone who fought for the Confederacy was granted amnesty by Lincoln or Johnson. Exceptions under Lincoln were for Confederate government leaders and those who mistreated prisoners. Under Johnson those individuals were granted pardons. In a final proclamation on December 25, 1868, Johnson declared "unconditionally, and without reservation, ... a full pardon and amnesty for the offence of treason against the United States, or of adhering to their enemies during the late civil war, with restoration of all rights, privileges, and immunities under the Constitution and the laws ...".  

These former Confederates all were padoned and became US citizens again with full voting rights. The only thing it did not allow were ownership of slaves of restoration of property confiscated. http://www.presidency.ucsb.edu/ws/?pid=72360

Even Jefferson Davis after serving a jail sentence was pardoned in 1868 and in 1869 the US government decided not to prosecute him for any crimes against the US. He was elected to the Senate in 1875, but was refused the office. The US did not recognize former Confederates to hold any office other than state or local. Eventually in 1978 President Carter restored full citizenship to Davis And General Lee. https://constitutioncenter.org/blog/the-pardon-of-jefferson-davis-and-the-14th-amendment

You and I may agree that their ideas were wrong. Just like I think people that today believe in white nationalism or Marxism don't believe in American values. But to say they aren't American citizens isn't true. You can believe that America is evil and still be an American citizen. That is part of what makes this country great. 

 

 

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4 minutes ago, Rebelbacker said:

I disagree with you on them not being Americans. Everyone who fought for the Confederacy was granted amnesty by Lincoln or Johnson. Exceptions under Lincoln were for Confederate government leaders and those who mistreated prisoners. Under Johnson those individuals were granted pardons. In a final proclamation on December 25, 1868, Johnson declared "unconditionally, and without reservation, ... a full pardon and amnesty for the offence of treason against the United States, or of adhering to their enemies during the late civil war, with restoration of all rights, privileges, and immunities under the Constitution and the laws ...".  

These former Confederates all were padoned and became US citizens again with full voting rights. The only thing it did not allow were ownership of slaves of restoration of property confiscated. http://www.presidency.ucsb.edu/ws/?pid=72360

Even Jefferson Davis after serving a jail sentence was pardoned in 1868 and in 1869 the US government decided not to prosecute him for any crimes against the US. He was elected to the Senate in 1875, but was refused the office. The US did not recognize former Confederates to hold any office other than state or local. Eventually in 1978 President Carter restored full citizenship to Davis And General Lee. https://constitutioncenter.org/blog/the-pardon-of-jefferson-davis-and-the-14th-amendment

You and I may agree that their ideas were wrong. Just like I think people that today believe in white nationalism or Marxism don't believe in American values. But to say they aren't American citizens isn't true. You can believe that America is evil and still be an American citizen. That is part of what makes this country great. 

 

 

In the legal sense, yes, American. In the cultural sense, no, they lost the war for the hearts and minds of America. The culture they chose to represent lost. But we can agree to disagree on those finer and more subjective points. :) 

I'm speaking in the same vein of one who calls the KKK "anti-American." They may still legally be American citizens, but what they espouse is the antithesis of American culture.

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4 minutes ago, SharkTanked said:

In the legal sense, yes, American. In the cultural sense, no, they lost the war for the hearts and minds of America. The culture they chose to represent lost. But we can agree to disagree on those finer and more subjective points. :) 

I'm speaking in the same vein of one who calls the KKK "anti-American." They may still legally be American citizens, but what they espouse is the antithesis of American culture.

In this point I agree with you. The same way I don't think that Marxists, Socialists, radical Islamists and white nationalists reflect traditional American values. 

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Martin Luther King Jr saw homosexuality as a "problem" that can be solved by a psychiatrist. Many today would call that being a homophobe. Certainly the left will not stand for this.....how long until they begin tearing his statues down and demanding the removal of his National Holiday? I mean.....if you're going all in....go all in. 

CSU AD Jack Graham - “If you get outside our borders, no one knows who we are. I was in Phoenix (last week) for the Mountain West meetings and there was a reception with all of the athletic directors. The bartender said to me, ‘Colorado State, where are you guys, Boulder?’ I’ve gotten that all my career. No one knows us outside our own boundaries."

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5 minutes ago, WyomingCoog said:

Martin Luther King Jr saw homosexuality as a "problem" that can be solved by a psychiatrist. Many today would call that being a homophobe. Certainly the left will not stand for this.....how long until they begin tearing his statues down and demanding the removal of his National Holiday? I mean.....if you're going all in....go all in. 

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8 minutes ago, WyomingCoog said:

Martin Luther King Jr saw homosexuality as a "problem" that can be solved by a psychiatrist. Many today would call that being a homophobe. Certainly the left will not stand for this.....how long until they begin tearing his statues down and demanding the removal of his National Holiday? I mean.....if you're going all in....go all in. 

Like Byrd and his membership with the KKK, MLK, had he lived longer, would have repented and embraced homosexuality.  

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1 hour ago, SharkTanked said:

Yes we already know the story and information, but sometimes it takes a visual to truly bring home the power of the knowledge. For some people it has more impact and value than others.

That doesn't really hold water either, right? Why should I be worried that my kid ends up going to J.E.B. Stuart HS (recently approved name change, but by no-means was it a given). Because a small group need visual reminders? They think it's about their heritage? Why should a minority be forced to walk into a courthouse, play in a park, visit their statehouse under the gaze of men who fought to keep them enslaved? Heritage, history? No. This idea that removing these monuments is sweeping away history, well, it doesn't hold water.

If someone is trying to learn more by looking at these monuments, they should pick up a book or go to a museum, would be a thousand times more effective.

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Just now, SFtoVA said:

That doesn't really hold water either, right? Why should I be worried that my kid ends up going to J.E.B. Stuart HS (recently approved name change, but by no-means was it a given). Because a small group need visual reminders? They think it's about their heritage? Why should a minority be forced to walk into a courthouse, play in a park, visit their statehouse under the gaze of men who fought to keep them enslaved? Heritage, history? No. This idea that removing these monuments is sweeping away history, well, it doesn't hold water.

If someone is trying to learn more by looking at these monuments, they should pick up a book or go to a museum, would be a thousand times more effective.

Well we agree that they "belong in a museum." I'm just saying that monuments themselves serve purposes. However, it is important that they are properly located. Many of the civil war ones are not.

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39 minutes ago, roswellcoug said:

Like Byrd and his membership with the KKK, MLK, had he lived longer, would have repented and embraced homosexuality.  

Well, we hope you repent and finally come out of the closet. 

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1 hour ago, bluerules009 said:

So are you going to vote for democrats who are now fighting for the same thing Stonewall Jackson fought for?  Or are you a hypocrite, oh wait... we already know the answer.

https://www.economist.com/news/united-states/21715039-americas-most-progressive-state-set-lead-new-fight-against-federal

Democrats are learning to invoke states’ rights

At the same time Democrats, who over the last half-century have zealously defended sacrosanct federal laws - such as the Civil Rights Act of 1964 that tackled segregation - against arguments that states should be allowed to chart their own way, are now making plans to employ some of those very states' rights positions to fend off Trump administration policies they disagree with.

http://www.businessinsider.com/democrats-and-republicans-switched-sides-on-states-rights-2017-1

The south fought to preserve slavery.  "States Rights" is just a dog whistle to preserve slavery and is a whitewashing of history.  The only "State Right" they wanted was the right to keep human slaves. Don't conflate people who really believe in states rights with those southern traitors.

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54 minutes ago, Akkula said:

The south fought to preserve slavery.  "States Rights" is just a dog whistle to preserve slavery and is a whitewashing of history.  The only "State Right" they wanted was the right to keep human slaves. Don't conflate people who really believe in states rights with those southern traitors.

Did Southern states have the right to leave the union if they so wished?  Does California currently have that right so they wish?

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