Health Care Bill

[mugtang]

I don't like the way the GOP is doing this.  They are doing exactly what they accused the Dems of doing in 2010 with Obamacare.  It's despicable. Ignoring the human aspect of this, healthcare is 1/6 of the U.S. economy.  I think we should have an open and honest debate on the subject as it effects all of us.

[THEUniversityofNevada]

This is worth a read to remind us how we got here.

The Real Story of Obamacare's Birth

[easybronc]

55 minutes ago, mugtang said:

I don't like the way the GOP is doing this.  They are doing exactly what they accused the Dems of doing in 2010 with Obamacare.  It's despicable. Ignoring the human aspect of this, healthcare is 1/6 of the U.S. economy.  I think we should have an open and honest debate on the subject as it effects all of us.

Dems have made it clear they will vote 100% against the bill regardless of what it says, but not until they exercise their stall tactics and get their soundbites in about how the GOP wants to kill your grandma.  Eff them.  They can see this when its ready for a vote.

[Jack Bauer]

1 hour ago, mugtang said:

I don't like the way the GOP is doing this.  They are doing exactly what they accused the Dems of doing in 2010 with Obamacare.  It's despicable. Ignoring the human aspect of this, healthcare is 1/6 of the U.S. economy.  I think we should have an open and honest debate on the subject as it effects all of us.

I just tire of the lack of transparency, and that goes from both sides.  Obama was not transparent with the previous health care bill, and it did have some good things in it, but this is just the same shit, different day.

[THEUniversityofNevada]

13 minutes ago, easybronc said:

Dems have made it clear they will vote 100% against the bill regardless of what it says, but not until they exercise their stall tactics and get their soundbites in about how the GOP wants to kill your grandma.  Eff them.  They can see this when its ready for a vote.

That sounds so f'in familiar!! Where have I heard that before? Oh yeah! 2009-10 coming out of Republican's mouths.

[bluerules009]

1 hour ago, mugtang said:

I don't like the way the GOP is doing this.  They are doing exactly what they accused the Dems of doing in 2010 with Obamacare.  It's despicable. Ignoring the human aspect of this, healthcare is 1/6 of the U.S. economy.  I think we should have an open and honest debate on the subject as it effects all of us.

The dems aren't an honest negotiator in this bill they just wanted to see what was in it so they could run Trump pushing grannies off cliffs ads.

 

I actually think a small group can do a better job doing the right thing.   So lets wait and see what they propose.  I am not optimistic it can be fixed even if politics weren't a consideration, so my expectations are low.

[bluerules009]

1 minute ago, THEUniversityofNevada said:

That sounds so f'in familiar!! Where have I heard that before? Oh yeah! 2009-10 coming out of Republican's mouths.

Except republicans did make policy suggestions and several seriously considered voting for the bill.  There is always a hardcore left or right but democrats fully buy into the propaganda always.   You don't step out from the herd say like Rand Paul or Ted Cruz for example and remain a democrat.   Republicans do stray from the herd that is both a strength and a weakness.

[mugtang]

5 minutes ago, bluerules009 said:

The dems aren't an honest negotiator in this bill they just wanted to see what was in it so they could run Trump pushing grannies off cliffs ads.

 

I actually think a small group can do a better job doing the right thing.   So lets wait and see what they propose.  I am not optimistic it can be fixed even if politics weren't a consideration, so my expectations are low.

It's sad that our expectations are to not have them phuck it up even worse.

[jackmormon]

45 minutes ago, THEUniversityofNevada said:

That sounds so f'in familiar!! Where have I heard that before? Oh yeah! 2009-10 coming out of Republican's mouths.

"Pull the plug on Grandma."

"Death panels.."

[I am Ram]

None of this matters as long as the cost of healthcare keeps skyrocketing as it has been. At this point, I feel like the only thing that can save us is total deregulation or extremely tight regulation of the medical and pharmaceutical industries. Otherwise, the whole thing is going to crash and burn within a decade. And crash and burn it will. We have reached a point where perfectly employed and insured people have to use GoFundMe to cover their outrageous medical bills. Or resort to medical tourism and illegally imported drugs. And why not? Private clinics in Mexico or the Caribbean do fine work. And a reputable online importer is probably no less trustworthy than the FDA. 

[mugtang]

40 minutes ago, I am Ram said:

None of this matters as long as the cost of healthcare keeps skyrocketing as it has been. At this point, I feel like the only thing that can save us is total deregulation or extremely tight regulation of the medical and pharmaceutical industries. Otherwise, the whole thing is going to crash and burn within a decade. And crash and burn it will. We have reached a point where perfectly employed and insured people have to use GoFundMe to cover their outrageous medical bills. Or resort to medical tourism and illegally imported drugs. And why not? Private clinics in Mexico or the Caribbean do fine work. And a reputable online importer is probably no less trustworthy than the FDA. 

I went to a ENT doctor.  He looked up my nose with a special camera and it took 2 minutes.  My bill was 400 for that, after my insurance discount. 

[halfmanhalfbronco]

5 hours ago, mugtang said:

It's sad that our expectations are to not have them phuck it up even worse.

This.

[SJSUMFA2013]

If the next healthcare law doesn't say "You're entitled to healthcare even if you don't have a goddamn dime to your name" then there's no need to waste paper printing it out. 

[Jack Bauer]

15 minutes ago, SJSUMFA2013 said:

If the next healthcare law doesn't say "You're entitled to healthcare even if you don't have a goddamn dime to your name" then there's no need to waste paper printing it out. 

People get that these days to begin with.  If you're having a heart attack and show up to an emergency dept, do you not get care?  Or do we throw you out on the street without care and let you die from your heart attack?

Where do you come up with this crap?

[mugtang]

4 minutes ago, SJSUMFA2013 said:

If the next healthcare law doesn't say "You're entitled to healthcare even if you don't have a goddamn dime to your name" then there's no need to waste paper printing it out. 

But nobody is entitled to the labor of another person.  

[halfmanhalfbronco]

5 minutes ago, SJSUMFA2013 said:

If the next healthcare law doesn't say "You're entitled to healthcare even if you don't have a goddamn dime to your name" then there's no need to waste paper printing it out. 

LMFAO

[thelawlorfaithful]

30 minutes ago, SJSUMFA2013 said:

If the next healthcare law doesn't say "You're entitled to healthcare even if you don't have a goddamn dime to your name" then there's no need to waste paper printing it out. 

Advocating slavery...interesting strategy here Cotton.

[SJSUMFA2013]

26 minutes ago, mugtang said:

But nobody is entitled to the labor of another person.  

Pretty cynical of you. Must everything be a product? Fine:

Human beings are good investments. If we make it easier for people to be healthy (and educated), they will save us in ways we can't even imagine. 

Beyond that though, the premise is faulty when it comes to needs. I'm a teacher, and my students are absolutely, without question, entitled to my labor free of charge. It is incumbent upon society to invest in them by compensating me for my labor and funding the resources they need, and most of them will provide a return on that investment. If, however, they have to choose between paying the rent and buying books that should be free, then they are less likely to succeed and ultimately contribute.

We invest this way in other public agencies. We spend a shit-ton of money on the military, which, while important, doesn't provide a great return on investment. What about cops and firefighters? Are we not all entitled to their labor no matter how much we pay in taxes? What's the difference between a cop and a doctor? 

Even putting all of that aside, the healthcare "debate" to me comes down to a simple question: do we value human life more than money? The answer is clear and completely disheartening.

[thelawlorfaithful]

30 minutes ago, SJSUMFA2013 said:

Pretty cynical of you. Must everything be a product? Fine:

Human beings are good investments. If we make it easier for people to be healthy (and educated), they will save us in ways we can't even imagine.

 

Who is paying for this investment? Do they want to? Who is sacrificing the time out of their life to make it "easier to be healthy?" Do they want to do it for free?

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Beyond that though, the premise is faulty when it comes to needs. I'm a teacher, and my students are absolutely, without question, entitled to my labor free of charge.

Your students? You mean the people who pay you? Why don't you donate every moment of your life to educating every person who is entitled to your labor instead of wasting it only on those who pay you? There must literally be thousands of them around you every day. Hmmm.

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It is incumbent upon society to invest in them by compensating me for my labor and funding the resources they need, and most of them will provide a return on that investment.

Where is it incumbent? Did we all agree to this at birth? Or are you entitled to compensation because you're special, with no questions asked by those responsible for the remuneration.

Quote

If, however, they have to choose between paying the rent and buying books that should be free, then they are less likely to succeed and ultimately contribute.

Well that is quite a dichotomy. One that exists nowhere in America without substitutes for either product. In any case, what do you mean by contribute? Is this the sole value of a person, their contribution?

Quote

We invest this way in other public agencies. We spend a shit-ton of money on the military, which, while important, doesn't provide a great return on investment.

How do you figure? 

Quote

What about cops and firefighters? Are we not all entitled to their labor no matter how much we pay in taxes? What's the difference between a cop and a doctor?

The doctor freely exchanges his property, his labor and human capital, for a value agreed upon between he and the payer.

The cop exchanges his property, his labor and human capital, with the government. The agreement grants the right of force, including lethal recourse, in exchange for the cop's property being put to the use of protecting the rights of its citizens; their life, Liberty, and property.

Quote

Even putting all of that aside, the healthcare "debate" to me comes down to a simple question: do we value human life more than money? The answer is clear and completely disheartening.

Who is we? Because it certainly isn't we who are being asked, no, expected to surrender their property to provide healthcare for others.

You think you are entitled to the labor of others to pay for your healthcare. You can dress it up in platitudes and false altruism, but it amounts to the same thing. You think you're entitled to something that someone else should pay for, and they're immoral for objecting to that. Bull +++++ing crap.

[BSUTOP25]

4 minutes ago, thelawlorfaithful said:

Who is paying for this investment? Do they want to? Who is sacrificing the time out of their life to make it "easier to be healthy?" Do they want to do it for free?

Your students? You mean the people who pay you? Why don't you donate every moment of your life to educating every person who is entitled to your labor instead of wasting it only on those who pay you? There must literally be thousands of them around you every day. Hmmm.

Where is it incumbent? Did we all agree to this at birth? Or are you entitled to compensation because you're special, with no questions asked by those responsible for the remuneration.

Well that is quite a dichotomy. One that exists nowhere in America without substitutes for either product. In any case, what do you mean by contribute? Is this the sole value of a person, their contribution?

How do you figure? 

The doctor freely exchanges his property, his labor and human capital, for a value agreed upon between he and the payer.

The cop exchanges his property, his labor and human capital, with the government. The agreement grants the right of force, including lethal recourse, in exchange for the cop's property being put to the use of protecting the rights of its citizens; their life, Liberty, and property.

Who is we? Because it certainly isn't we who are being asked, no, expected to surrender their property to provide healthcare for others.

You think you are entitled to the labor of others to pay for your healthcare. You can dress it up in platitudes and false altruism, but it amounts to the same thing. You think you're entitled to something that someone else should pay for, and they immoral for objecting to that. Bull +++++ing crap.

Come on man, just think how medicine will advance with unprecedented breakthrough innovation and cures once the entire industry is forced into slave labor as advocated by @SJSUMFA2013!