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thelawlorfaithful

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16 minutes ago, sactowndog said:

Well ICE has proven it certainly takes longer than the hour or so they spent trying (if they even did try) to verify his status before shoving the Hispanic guy over the border.   He just as easily could have been a US citizen.

Looks like your lord and savior Barry and others before him deported a lot of citizens!

https://news.vice.com/article/the-us-keeps-mistakenly-deporting-its-own-citizens

But of course, this is all about Hitler/Trump and his Gestapo/ICE.

Carry on.

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51 minutes ago, sactowndog said:

Once again Slapdad makes a statement that is blatantly false.  First it's the super fast, super accurate immigration checking system that apparently failed.  Now it's the legal requirement to carry an ID. 

http://blogs.findlaw.com/law_and_life/2014/02/do-you-have-to-carry-id-with-you-at-all-times.html

 

You sure are taking this personally. 

The conversation was about aliens, not U.S. citizens. To that point, as stated in the Immigration and Nationality Act, Sec. 264. [8 U.S.C. 1304] , subext (e):

Every alien, eighteen years of age and over, shall at all times carry with him and have in his personal possession any certificate of alien registration or alien registration receipt card issued to him pursuant to subsection (d). Any alien who fails to comply with the provisions of this subsection shall be guilty of a misdemeanor and shall upon conviction for each offense be fined not to exceed $100 or be imprisoned not more than thirty days, or both. 

https://www.uscis.gov/ilink/docView/SLB/HTML/SLB/0-0-0-1/0-0-0-29/0-0-0-8289.html#0-0-0-310 

I guess they could have put him in prison for that offense, thus allowing him all sorts of days to sort out the status of his DACA paperwork, but he absolutely was required to have the papers in his possession. But since we're going down this path, a couple more things should be pointed out. Due Process is a function of the courts, not ICE officers. Additionally, the removal process of illegal immigrants reads:

Other than removals that occur after a person is apprehended by the Border Patrol at or near the U.S. border, deportation requires a legal procedure with some guarantee of due process. Immigration and Customs Enforcement (ICE), which is part of the Department of Homeland Security, investigates people who are allegedly in the U.S. unlawfully and brings removal actions against them. The immigration court system is part of the Executive Office for Immigration Review, which in turn is part of the Department of Justice. Immigration judges (IJs) serve a role that is similar to administrative law judges in other government agencies.

 

 

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Geez, this is all too much (USA Today headline)

Trump to face 'Mexican heritage' judge in deported DREAMer case

Trump will not be involved in this lawsuit.

It is a suit to require the DHS to release files - nothing to do with the merits of his deportation.

The media frenzy is ridiculous.

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3 hours ago, roswellcoug said:

Looks like your lord and savior Barry and others before him deported a lot of citizens!

https://news.vice.com/article/the-us-keeps-mistakenly-deporting-its-own-citizens

But of course, this is all about Hitler/Trump and his Gestapo/ICE.

Carry on.

Only to an authoritarian like you would asking ICE follow due process appear as a liberal position.

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2 hours ago, Slapdad said:

You sure are taking this personally. 

The conversation was about aliens, not U.S. citizens. To that point, as stated in the Immigration and Nationality Act, Sec. 264. [8 U.S.C. 1304] , subext (e):

Every alien, eighteen years of age and over, shall at all times carry with him and have in his personal possession any certificate of alien registration or alien registration receipt card issued to him pursuant to subsection (d). Any alien who fails to comply with the provisions of this subsection shall be guilty of a misdemeanor and shall upon conviction for each offense be fined not to exceed $100 or be imprisoned not more than thirty days, or both. 

https://www.uscis.gov/ilink/docView/SLB/HTML/SLB/0-0-0-1/0-0-0-29/0-0-0-8289.html#0-0-0-310 

I guess they could have put him in prison for that offense, thus allowing him all sorts of days to sort out the status of his DACA paperwork, but he absolutely was required to have the papers in his possession. But since we're going down this path, a couple more things should be pointed out. Due Process is a function of the courts, not ICE officers. Additionally, the removal process of illegal immigrants reads:

Other than removals that occur after a person is apprehended by the Border Patrol at or near the U.S. border, deportation requires a legal procedure with some guarantee of due process. Immigration and Customs Enforcement (ICE), which is part of the Department of Homeland Security, investigates people who are allegedly in the U.S. unlawfully and brings removal actions against them. The immigration court system is part of the Executive Office for Immigration Review, which in turn is part of the Department of Justice. Immigration judges (IJs) serve a role that is similar to administrative law judges in other government agencies.

 

 

Fine you have modified your statement with a reference to make it accurate.  In terms of an immigrant yes he should have had his papers and when informed he was DACA ICE should have attempted to verify his status which they clearly failed to do.

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2 minutes ago, sactowndog said:

Only to an authoritarian like you would asking ICE follow due process appear as a liberal position.

Good heavens.

Look up DACA sometime. It does not offer UNLIMITED protection from deportation. It does not confer any RIGHTS. Just DEFERS action if the illegal follows the rules. So no due process. 

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14 minutes ago, sactowndog said:

Fine you have modified your statement with a reference to make it accurate.  In terms of an immigrant yes he should have had his papers and when informed he was DACA ICE should have attempted to verify his status which they clearly failed to do.

It's hard to say exactly what happened between when he was detained and when he was deported. Neither of us were in the room, so I can't opine on the goings-on with any degree of certainty. It's very possible that they did try to verify his status. Maybe they tried and the system incorrectly showed his status as expired. Maybe he told them he was DACA and he had extended it and they didn't believe him. Maybe he panicked and said he was Mexican and not a citizen of the U.S. (both are true) and didn't elaborate. Still a lot of questions to be answered.

I still think that his story has too many absurd holes in it to be believed. My guess is that he crossed the border and realized he screwed himself and then compounded that bad decision with other bad decisions by trying to sneak across the border. That's just my hunch, though I think its a reasonable position to have given the crazy story. In this instance, I tend to believe that ICE acted appropriately. If more details come out later to show that he was asked randomly to prove his status and he was not given sufficient time to do so, then shame on the ICE agents. But if it comes out that he did not have prior approval to go into Mexico and this sh!tshow ensued, then shame on him and his attorney. 

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35 minutes ago, roswellcoug said:

Good heavens.

Look up DACA sometime. It does not offer UNLIMITED protection from deportation. It does not confer any RIGHTS. Just DEFERS action if the illegal follows the rules. So no due process. 

They had no clue what the status was of this kid.  They just shipped his ass to Mexico on the first bus out.   Only an idiot like you would think that was appropriate.

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1 hour ago, Slapdad said:

It's hard to say exactly what happened between when he was detained and when he was deported. Neither of us were in the room, so I can't opine on the goings-on with any degree of certainty. It's very possible that they did try to verify his status. Maybe they tried and the system incorrectly showed his status as expired. Maybe he told them he was DACA and he had extended it and they didn't believe him. Maybe he panicked and said he was Mexican and not a citizen of the U.S. (both are true) and didn't elaborate. Still a lot of questions to be answered.

I still think that his story has too many absurd holes in it to be believed. My guess is that he crossed the border and realized he screwed himself and then compounded that bad decision with other bad decisions by trying to sneak across the border. That's just my hunch, though I think its a reasonable position to have given the crazy story. In this instance, I tend to believe that ICE acted appropriately. If more details come out later to show that he was asked randomly to prove his status and he was not given sufficient time to do so, then shame on the ICE agents. But if it comes out that he did not have prior approval to go into Mexico and this sh!tshow ensued, then shame on him and his attorney. 

I am not sure what is absurd about they deported him, without doing appropriate due diligence or their system was inaccurate, and once deported he tried to get back home which is what any normal person would do.   Yesterday you were convinced his status expired in 2015 so it appears you are inclined to believe whatever ICE tells you.

Unfortunately we will never know conclusively if he told them he was DACA and they chose to ignore it.   ICE has been less than forthcoming about this case.   ICE has also blatantly ignored due process and legal orders previously with the first Trump Executive order so quite frankly their credibility is not high.

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13 hours ago, sactowndog said:

I am not sure what is absurd about they deported him, without doing appropriate due diligence or their system was inaccurate, and once deported he tried to get back home which is what any normal person would do.   Yesterday you were convinced his status expired in 2015 so it appears you are inclined to believe whatever ICE tells you.

Unfortunately we will never know conclusively if he told them he was DACA and they chose to ignore it.   ICE has been less than forthcoming about this case.   ICE has also blatantly ignored due process and legal orders previously with the first Trump Executive order so quite frankly their credibility is not high.

His entire story is absurd. You don't think there are a lot of holes in it? The most likely scenario is that he crossed the border and when he realized he was screwed, he tried to sneak across and that was the first time ICE interacted with him. I don't buy his story....sorry. If you want to believe the story of a criminal over ICE, then that's fine. We all have our own perspective and its fine to disagree. We'll probably learn more in the coming weeks as I assume most of the ICE/HSA offices and border crossings have cameras.

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7 minutes ago, Slapdad said:

His entire story is absurd. You don't think there are a lot of holes in it? The most likely scenario is that he crossed the border and when he realized he was screwed, he tried to sneak across and that was the first time ICE interacted with him. I don't buy his story....sorry. If you want to believe the story of a criminal over ICE, then that's fine. We all have our own perspective and its fine to disagree. We'll probably learn more in the coming weeks as I assume most of the ICE/HSA offices and border crossings have cameras.

Who has been caught lying so far?

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29 minutes ago, Slapdad said:

His entire story is absurd. You don't think there are a lot of holes in it? The most likely scenario is that he crossed the border and when he realized he was screwed, he tried to sneak across and that was the first time ICE interacted with him. I don't buy his story....sorry. If you want to believe the story of a criminal over ICE, then that's fine. We all have our own perspective and its fine to disagree. We'll probably learn more in the coming weeks as I assume most of the ICE/HSA offices and border crossings have cameras.

From the DHS statement:

"Prior to his arrest by the United States Border Patrol on February 19, 2017, Montes-Bojorquez's last documented encounter with any United States immigration law enforcement official was in August of 2010, where he was permitted to withdraw his application of admission in lieu of receiving an Expedited Removal."

https://www.dhs.gov/news/2017/04/19/dhs-statement-former-daca-recipient-juan-manuel-montes-bojorquez

So he left the US sometime before August 2010 (before DACA was even around), tried to come back in, and was not admitted. So if he was in the US in 2017, he must have entered illegally again sometime after August 2010 (who knows when?). How could Obama give him DACA when one of the basic requirements is that the applicant have lived continuously in the US since 2007? 

Guidelines

You may request DACA if you:

  1. Were under the age of 31 as of June 15, 2012;
  2. Came to the United States before reaching your 16th birthday;
  3. Have continuously resided in the United States since June 15, 2007, up to the present time;
  4. Were physically present in the United States on June 15, 2012, and at the time of making your request for consideration of deferred action with USCIS;
  5. Had no lawful status on June 15, 2012;
  6. Are currently in school, have graduated or obtained a certificate of completion from high school, have obtained a general education development (GED) certificate, or are an honorably discharged veteran of the Coast Guard or Armed Forces of the United States; and
  7. Have not been convicted of a felony, significant misdemeanor,or three or more other misdemeanors, and do not otherwise pose a threat to national security or public safety.

https://www.uscis.gov/humanitarian/consideration-deferred-action-childhood-arrivals-daca

 

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34 minutes ago, sactowndog said:

Who has been caught lying so far?

Are we including his theft charge as lying? Probably not. ICE revised their statement the following day. If you want to count that as lying, then I guess your scorecard is ICE -1, Montes - 0. It shouldn't be difficult to find out who is telling the truth since there are cameras at the border crossings and along the border fence and likely in the ICE offices. I have a hard time believing that ICE agents approached him for no reason while having lunch with a friend to ask for his paperwork. It's possible, buy highly unlikely. 

 

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1 hour ago, roswellcoug said:

From the DHS statement:

"Prior to his arrest by the United States Border Patrol on February 19, 2017, Montes-Bojorquez's last documented encounter with any United States immigration law enforcement official was in August of 2010, where he was permitted to withdraw his application of admission in lieu of receiving an Expedited Removal."

https://www.dhs.gov/news/2017/04/19/dhs-statement-former-daca-recipient-juan-manuel-montes-bojorquez

So he left the US sometime before August 2010 (before DACA was even around), tried to come back in, and was not admitted. So if he was in the US in 2017, he must have entered illegally again sometime after August 2010 (who knows when?). How could Obama give him DACA when one of the basic requirements is that the applicant have lived continuously in the US since 2007? 

Guidelines

You may request DACA if you:

  1. Were under the age of 31 as of June 15, 2012;
  2. Came to the United States before reaching your 16th birthday;
  3. Have continuously resided in the United States since June 15, 2007, up to the present time;
  4. Were physically present in the United States on June 15, 2012, and at the time of making your request for consideration of deferred action with USCIS;
  5. Had no lawful status on June 15, 2012;
  6. Are currently in school, have graduated or obtained a certificate of completion from high school, have obtained a general education development (GED) certificate, or are an honorably discharged veteran of the Coast Guard or Armed Forces of the United States; and
  7. Have not been convicted of a felony, significant misdemeanor,or three or more other misdemeanors, and do not otherwise pose a threat to national security or public safety.

https://www.uscis.gov/humanitarian/consideration-deferred-action-childhood-arrivals-daca

 

Whether he should have qualified for status is irrelevant.  The facts remain the same:

1) ICE had no clue of his status prior to his rushed deportation at the time of his pick-up

2) ICE provided no opportunity for him to contact someone to provide evidence of his status prior to his deportation

 

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39 minutes ago, Jack Bauer said:

Not @Slapdad

I never accused him of lying but he did post two inaccurate statements 

1) ICE has a system that produces accurate status and it was used to accurately ascertain his status expired in 2015

2) Carrying an ID is required by law in the United States 

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4 minutes ago, sactowndog said:

I never accused him of lying but he did post two inaccurate statements 

1) ICE has a system that produces accurate status and it was used to accurately ascertain his status expired in 2015

2) Carrying an ID is required by law in the United States 

First of all, we're arguing this as the story develops, so I'm going by the information that's available at the time and at the time, reports said that his status had expired in 2015. Second, the post about laws requiring an ID were in reference to aliens and nowhere did I say that it applied to U.S. citizens. If you want to hitch your wagon to this kid's highly suspect story, then be my guest. I happen to think he's making it all up to cover his ass.

 

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1 hour ago, Slapdad said:

First of all, we're arguing this as the story develops, so I'm going by the information that's available at the time and at the time, reports said that his status had expired in 2015. Second, the post about laws requiring an ID were in reference to aliens and nowhere did I say that it applied to U.S. citizens. If you want to hitch your wagon to this kid's highly suspect story, then be my guest. I happen to think he's making it all up to cover his ass.

 

Here is your direct quote:

They existed back then and though you might not have realized it, the US (and most countries) do require you to carry proof of your identity and status. 

As to what DHS said, Kustra and Thompson both said the bonus plan would reward performance.  Common sense was clear that was never the case.  It has now been scrapped.

Anyone who has dealt with immigration authorities knows they can't do anything quickly.  There was no way in hell they could verify is status in any sort of dispute in the hour or so they would have had between bringing him in and putting him in the bus.   Any pretense ICE made of following any sort of due process is obviously BS.   Just like the bonus plan being performanced based was BS.   

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44 minutes ago, sactowndog said:

Here is your direct quote:

They existed back then and though you might not have realized it, the US (and most countries) do require you to carry proof of your identity and status. 

As to what DHS said, Kustra and Thompson both said the bonus plan would reward performance.  Common sense was clear that was never the case.  It has now been scrapped.

Anyone who has dealt with immigration authorities knows they can't do anything quickly.  There was no way in hell they could verify is status in any sort of dispute in the hour or so they would have had between bringing him in and putting him in the bus.   Any pretense ICE made of following any sort of due process is obviously BS.   Just like the bonus plan being performanced based was BS.   

You conveniently omitted the sentence before that saying "My grandfather came to this country from Europe and was subject to the same laws.". The conversation was about aliens/immigrants and nowhere in that sentence did I state, explicitly or implicitly, that we had switched gears and were now suddenly talking about U.S. citizens. 

I have no idea what you're talking about in regards to Kustra and Thompson and a bonus plan. If you're digging up a post from who knows when, then I've forgotten the discussion and, quite frankly, have no idea why it would be pertinent to this discussion.

I have no idea what transpired that night and neither do you. Neither one of us were there. You assume that this kid with a criminal record and a highly suspect story is telling the truth when he claims to being approached for no reason and deported. I am assuming that he went across the border and climbed the fence to get back, was caught, and THEN deported. If was picked up like he says, then there are more questions. What constitutes due process (assuming that ICE is being held to that judicial standard)? How long do you propose they give him? Even if it was three hours, what conversations/admissions took place in those three hours? What he did or didn't say plays a big part in this. Say he panicked and told them he wasn't a U.S. citizen and didn't have valid DACA status....why not put him on a bus and ship him back within three hours? 

 

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