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Akkula

The U.S. war crime North Korea won’t forget

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https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/the-us-war-crime-north-korea-wont-forget/2015/03/20/fb525694-ce80-11e4-8c54-ffb5ba6f2f69_story.html?utm_term=.8103b640d5ca

Interesting article.  I have to say that the Korean war was really taught as a kind of placeholder war.  It was perhaps the start of the war hawk, John McCain and Lindsey Graham types of wars.  The more I learn about Lemay, the more he seems like a war criminal and psycho.  

We tend to have a very Americanized view of history and gloss over the things we have done across the globe that doesn't fit the narrative we want to hear.  Our propaganda that engenders this type of stuff are movies like:

The Rescue:  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Rescue_(1988_film)

Iron Eagle

Top Gun

All of these are great but they serve up a big steaming pile of glamorous American interventionism as the "good guys" with a big American flag heroically go across the globe spreading goodness.  However, we criticize folks in Russia or Turkey for being so naive to believe what the state controlled media tells them.  When the American public thinks we are acting like the movies and we are really carpet bombing civilians or propping up dictators that is why we end up creating a lot of our own problems.  

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We used the same tactics in WWII, we firebombed German and Japanese cities.  Since that time, war has become more "civilized" but I don't know if I'd call it a war crime as it was the standard military tactic back then. 

thelawlorfaithful, on 31 Dec 2012 - 04:01 AM, said:One of the rules I live by: never underestimate a man in a dandy looking sweater

 

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1 hour ago, mugtang said:

We used the same tactics in WWII, we firebombed German and Japanese cities.  Since that time, war has become more "civilized" but I don't know if I'd call it a war crime as it was the standard military tactic back then. 

We prosecuted Japanese for war crimes for far less then what LeMay did in WWII let alone Korea.

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1 minute ago, bluerules009 said:

We prosecuted Japanese for war crimes for far less then what LeMay did in WWII let alone Korea.

We also won WWII so we got to decide who would be prosecuted and who wouldn't. 

thelawlorfaithful, on 31 Dec 2012 - 04:01 AM, said:One of the rules I live by: never underestimate a man in a dandy looking sweater

 

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1 hour ago, SharkTanked said:

It's been a real shit show since WWII. The military industrial complex was created by that war and it has needed to be fed ever since. Enter "War on Communism." That is over (?), enter "War on Terror."

It was Eisenhower (who was president right afterward) that said "beware the Military Industrial Complex". 

thelawlorfaithful, on 31 Dec 2012 - 04:01 AM, said:One of the rules I live by: never underestimate a man in a dandy looking sweater

 

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While I won't argue that the tactics employed by the U.S. during the Korean War (and others) were brutal, Kim Jung Il and Kim Jung Un have also killed close to (if not more than) as many of his own people. Some estimates are in the 3.5 Million range....that's nuts!

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Someone really needs to get into "alternative history" movies.  What would have happened if we did X instead of Y at certain key points and how would the course of history changed.

If after WWII we returned to being the reluctant power that didn't like to get drawn into foreign wars, what would have happened?  The Soviets could have run all through Europe and Asia but they probably would have had an even bigger epic collapse than they had when the Soviet Union failed.  It seems like it was destined to fail.   Perhaps all of the cold war "dirt" we did wouldn't still be haunting us with repercussions today.  The ends don't justify the means and you can't just do anything you want and expect no blow back or repercussions.  How many times do we have to be taught that putting bombs into people ends up causing us more problems down the road even if we can declare a short-term victory.  

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12 minutes ago, Rocket said:

Oh sh*t, it appears y'all have finally put down the pom pom. Is it really safe to return to reality.

Not sure myself.?But tread lightly. Seems they're on turning point.

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On 4/18/2017 at 2:09 PM, bluerules009 said:

We prosecuted Japanese for war crimes for far less then what LeMay did in WWII let alone Korea.

I agree and liked this....on the other hand my Grandfather served as the Operations Officer on a carrier in the Pacific.  After Germany surrendered he was transferred to the Pacific and stationed in Alaska where they were to be a diversionary attack from the north on the Japanese islands.  The projected casualties were expected to be 90%.  

I don't think war has any easy answers. ?

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1 hour ago, sactowndog said:

I agree and liked this....on the other hand my Grandfather served as the Operations Officer on a carrier in the Pacific.  After Germany surrendered he was transferred to the Pacific and stationed in Alaska where they were to be a diversionary attack from the north on the Japanese islands.  The projected casualties were expected to be 90%.  

I don't think war has any easy answers. ?

War has easy answer mostly.   Just say no.

The only war in our history since the civil war that helped America was WWII.  Every manufacturing economy in the world was bombed into the stone age and we had 35 years of easy going economically.

Every other war has hurt America.

Even if we had stayed out of WWII we would have still had the majority of the economic benefit and save 200K american lives and a whole lot of treasure.

There was no national security issue in any of those wars.

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We at least had the smarts to get MacArthur out of Korea because he was out of control and recommended that we use "limited nukes" among other things. There were lot of bad things we did not do.

We hired people like Lemay to do a job and now we judge him....he was a symptom, not the problem.   Most Americans want to do the right thing...our govt, not-so-much. We ignore/abuse our own history, beat ourselves up using today's perspective on selected events and then ignore Eisenhower's warnings. How is that translated into any solution? ....it doesnt.  We grow our govt and then criticize it....instead of accepting the consequences. 

There are really bad people that only respect us for the worst we have to offer...no different than our own society and it sucks.  Are we smart enough to learn from mistakes? Usually not. 

 

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War is hell. Atrocities were committed in every war I can think of. Their are no civilized wars. Fire bombing was just on a grander scale due to technology. Romans loved to crucify anyone and everyone after a victory and sell women and children into slavery.

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On 4/19/2017 at 5:24 AM, Akkula said:

Someone really needs to get into "alternative history" movies.  What would have happened if we did X instead of Y at certain key points and how would the course of history changed.

If after WWII we returned to being the reluctant power that didn't like to get drawn into foreign wars, what would have happened?  The Soviets could have run all through Europe and Asia but they probably would have had an even bigger epic collapse than they had when the Soviet Union failed.  It seems like it was destined to fail.   Perhaps all of the cold war "dirt" we did wouldn't still be haunting us with repercussions today.  The ends don't justify the means and you can't just do anything you want and expect no blow back or repercussions.  How many times do we have to be taught that putting bombs into people ends up causing us more problems down the road even if we can declare a short-term victory.  

Watch Amazon's "man in the high castle"  outstanding entertainment.  Not a movie but worth your time.

 

https://www.amazon.com/Man-High-Castle-Season/dp/B00RSGIVVO

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YEAH but the  CONSTANT bombing employed by General  Lemay in WW 2 could have been stopped but the Japanese government would never give up.

Crap the USA had to demonstrate  they had the  A-bomb and killed 2 of their cities before they finally  quit.

I am glad the USA used those bombs as they saved US soldiers lives,

and war is bloody hell.

All sides commit atrocities in every war. Of course that does not make them "right".

 

USA military did the My Lai massacre in Vietnam. And that was only exposed because a reporter from a Cleveland newspaper published his photos.

The public  would have ever known about it .

 

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The part I have struggled with and will most likely never agree with in a million lifetimes is bombing civilians. Imo bombing civilians is the most brutal and inhumane thing a man could ever do. Throughout history, when was it ever considered ok to slaughter civilians? I can't think of any other wars where this was considered honorable or civilized. What happened to the days of armies meeting on a battlefield and fighting each other? We crossed a major line.

 

 

 

 

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1 hour ago, Rocket said:

The part I have struggled with and will most likely never agree with in a million lifetimes is bombing civilians. Imo bombing civilians is the most brutal and inhumane thing a man could ever do.  Throughout history, when was it ever considered ok to slaughter civilians? I can't think of any other wars where this was considered honorable or civilized. What happened to the days of armies meeting on a battlefield and fighting each other? We crossed a major line.

Pretty much all of history. The only sustained period of time where noncombatants had an ok time was the 18th century, and that went kaput once the French Revolution kicked off. As HR said, War is hell.

We’re all sitting in the dugout. Thinking we should pitch. How you gonna throw a shutout when all you do is bitch.

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1 hour ago, Rocket said:

The part I have struggled with and will most likely never agree with in a million lifetimes is bombing civilians. Imo bombing civilians is the most brutal and inhumane thing a man could ever do. Throughout history, when was it ever considered ok to slaughter civilians? I can't think of any other wars where this was considered honorable or civilized. What happened to the days of armies meeting on a battlefield and fighting each other? We crossed a major line.

Slaughtering civilians was a way to get the leadership of a country to kneel. But I agree 100%. In Japan for instance, why didn't we drop the 'atomic bombs' on Tokyo. Take out the capital and be done with it.... I know Nagasaki and Hiroshima were strategic targets but a lot of innocent people were killed just so we could see the Emperor of Japan sign a surrender.

I think it's part of the warrior mindset- you want the leader of the opposition to bow publicly to his oppressors.

It makes for better PR.

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