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retrofade

Trump is going after the Freedom Caucus now

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33 minutes ago, retrofade said:

Wait, when did $600B become $150M become $1T? That $150B number isn't cumulative between 2017 and 2026, that's the total cost savings. You're making facts up as you go along. The original bill had it as $1.2T in reduced spending, but $883B in reduced revenues, and a total savings of $337B. Then the revision of the plan reduced the savings from $337B to $150B. That's a total savings of 3.8% of the federal budget. Why would you be willing to settle for a 3.8% reduction when you could devise a plan that saves a significantly larger amount? This shouldn't be about just replacing Obamacare with the first alternative that the GOP can come up with, this should be about replacing it with something that works, saves a significant amount of money, and results in meaningful reform. RyanTrumpGOPCare did none of those things except to save a very nominal amount of money. 

The $150 billion is the cut to the deficit, the $1.15 trillion is reduced spending, and the $1 trillion is the amount of taxes the government doesn't confiscate from the private sector to inefficiently spend. And that doesn't mean you just stop there, all this would have been is just a good start. Even if you are getting crap as you said with either plan, you're paying a trillion less for this one.

But as it sits the deficit remains unchanged, the government is still on course to spend all that money, and they're gonna be taking that money from the private sector. Much of that is on the heads of the freedom caucus.

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We’re all sitting in the dugout. Thinking we should pitch. How you gonna throw a shutout when all you do is bitch.

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1 hour ago, thelawlorfaithful said:

Why do you think this bill is as bad as Obamacare? It taxes less, it spends less, it reduces the deficit. The main point against it is it didn't let the government cover 24 million people at the per capita healthcare cost of 72 million people like the old one.

Now I would prefer a healthcare system that is more in line with what the freedom caucus wants. But just because I don't get it, I'm not gonna pretend like the dumpster tuna that is Trumpcare is exactly the same as eating the diarrhea soup that is obamacare, it's not. Just because Obama did something doesn't mean it's cool for the freedom caucus to do it too.

Just because it didn't pass today doesn't mean there won't be repeal and reform.

I suspect in 3 months we will here about another approach. In 5 months you will see a bill and maybe by the new year it will pass.   In plenty of time to have kept promises and looked thoughtful while doing it.

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32 minutes ago, sactowndog said:

Let's be clear.  I have said Government can't afford to do it all and they can't.  The government should provide a baseline national plan.   Providers are free to provide above that.   

A similiar analogy would be the postal service versus UPS and FedEx.   

As for drug pricing I see no reason to discuss further.

You are right government can't do it.

The private sector did it fine though before government and they can do it again if allowed.

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7 minutes ago, bluerules009 said:

Just because it didn't pass today doesn't mean there won't be repeal and reform.

I suspect in 3 months we will here about another approach. In 5 months you will see a bill and maybe by the new year it will pass.   In plenty of time to have kept promises and looked thoughtful while doing it.

I hope you're right. And I hope we get a better plan than this one.

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We’re all sitting in the dugout. Thinking we should pitch. How you gonna throw a shutout when all you do is bitch.

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2 hours ago, thelawlorfaithful said:

I hope you're right. And I hope we get a better plan than this one.

If I am Ryan I am creating a behind the scene group to write something that can pass.  You get 5 people from both ends and the middle and have them write something they can all vote for.  They will do it out of the media spotlight and in secrecy.

They have no choice to not pass something that would be political suicide to fail.  

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9 hours ago, retrofade said:

The choice is clear... deal with the short term bad in order to get something better long-term. Replacing Obamacare with Obamacare II is like trading Natty Ice for Bud Light instead of waiting for a while and getting some Stone Imperial Russian Stout instead. It would be irresponsible of them to replace a steaming shit with shit that isn't quite as steaming. Doing that wouldn't be doing the work to achieve their goals, it would be settling for shit.

Except Russian Stout isn't ever coming.   Because they and the moderates will never agree.  

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7 hours ago, bluerules009 said:

You are right government can't do it.

The private sector did it fine though before government and they can do it again if allowed.

I think most people felt the private sector wasn't doing fine which is one reason Obama got elected. 

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7 hours ago, bluerules009 said:

Just because it didn't pass today doesn't mean there won't be repeal and reform.

I suspect in 3 months we will here about another approach. In 5 months you will see a bill and maybe by the new year it will pass.   In plenty of time to have kept promises and looked thoughtful while doing it.

We shall see.  I think you are exhibit A why it won't happen. 

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5 hours ago, bluerules009 said:

If I am Ryan I am creating a behind the scene group to write something that can pass.  You get 5 people from both ends and the middle and have them write something they can all vote for.  They will do it out of the media spotlight and in secrecy.

They have no choice to not pass something that would be political suicide to fail.  

What would that be?  Give me an example.  You proved in the other thread people of your ilk can't get to a yes.  The freedom caucus is just like you.

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5 hours ago, bluerules009 said:

If I am Ryan I am creating a behind the scene group to write something that can pass.  You get 5 people from both ends and the middle and have them write something they can all vote for.  They will do it out of the media spotlight and in secrecy.

They have no choice to not pass something that would be political suicide to fail.  

Their only hope is to align the centers of both parties like Jack proposed and then get something that can be passed.

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Trump's act is already old and those of us who aren't biased can see that he's in waaay over his head. Pence needs to start warming up in the bullpen. 26be.png

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Freedom caucus will not be bullied. If Ryan and Trump want to get anything done, other than flat out dismantling the government, they will have to work with the Dems.

 

They will need to govern closer to center, but I doubt they can manage that. It isn't about governing anymore, it's  about "winning" and screwing the opposition. Not to mention the average person.

One of the Final Five..........

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1 hour ago, HR_Poke said:

Freedom Caucus sucks. Stuck everyone with a shyty law just because the new one wasn't exactly what they wanted.

No, they left the status quo in place because voting for the new law would have been more of the same, just with a different name. 

I know, having principles is something that the hard right doesn't seem to understand these days. 

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3 minutes ago, retrofade said:

No, they left the status quo in place because voting for the new law would have been more of the same, just with a different name. 

I know, having principles is something that the hard right doesn't seem to understand these days. 

And it would have cost a lot less. Apparently reducing government spending isn't one of their principles.

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We’re all sitting in the dugout. Thinking we should pitch. How you gonna throw a shutout when all you do is bitch.

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16 minutes ago, thelawlorfaithful said:

And it would have cost a lot less. Apparently reducing government spending isn't one of their principles.

Doing something just to do it isn't acting in the best interests of the country. Why settle for something slightly less bad when you can work on getting something much better in place? The fact that you can't comprehend that pretty basic concept is pretty concerning. 

Trump wanted a win, and so the GOP haphazardly put this bill together, and demanded that it be passed immediately. I applaud the Freedom/Liberty Caucuses for not passing something for the sake of passing it, and for realizing that meaningful reform needs to be passed, not a bandaid. 

Like I said last night, this bill would reduce spending to the tune of 3.8% of the estimated 2017 budget --- OVER THE COURSE OF TEN YEARS. Would you thank your boss for giving you a bonus of $3.80 spread out over ten years? I seriously doubt it. That's the "savings" that this plan was going to give us.

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The HFC wanted a repeal without replace and they stuck to their principles. I am 100% opposed to their views but they did what they said they would and aren't going to be bullied by trump or Bannon.

 

The underlying fight here is about how much federal government they and their constituencies want. And what they want is what the south wanted civil war era. Strong state governments making most of the law and regulations with  very lose and secondary federal government. They want to tear down the federal administrative state and send it back to the states.  They want to tear down the federal and revert to geographical robber baron fiefdoms.

One of the Final Five..........

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1 hour ago, retrofade said:

Doing something just to do it isn't acting in the best interests of the country. Why settle for something slightly less bad when you can work on getting something much better in place? The fact that you can't comprehend that pretty basic concept is pretty concerning.

Until we see some tangible work being done this is not defensible. They are moving on. And if a blue wave next November wipes out GOP advantages in congress they won't ever get another chance. These fools left us with Obamacare, and unless things turn around that's what we'll have for good. 

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Trump wanted a win, and so the GOP haphazardly put this bill together, and demanded that it be passed immediately. I applaud the Freedom/Liberty Caucuses for not passing something for the sake of passing it, and for realizing that meaningful reform needs to be passed, not a bandaid.

Sometimes in politics you have to actually win political games. The Republicans can't do anything on healthcare without first repealing Obamacare. They need the headline because they've staked so much on it. By the same token, Democrats can't move on healthcare if it symbolically repeals Obamacare. But once it's done it becomes a different fight. Obamacare is Stalingrad, its symbolic importance is worth more than any strategic value. 

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Like I said last night, this bill would reduce spending to the tune of 3.8% of the estimated 2017 budget --- OVER THE COURSE OF TEN YEARS. Would you thank your boss for giving you a bonus of $3.80 spread out over ten years? I seriously doubt it. That's the "savings" that this plan was going to give us.

That is still a trillion dollars out of uncle sam's hands and into the private economy where it will be efficiently used. I'd certainly thank my boss for removing a trillion pound weight from my shoulders.

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We’re all sitting in the dugout. Thinking we should pitch. How you gonna throw a shutout when all you do is bitch.

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Guest RoscoesDad
5 hours ago, HR_Poke said:

Freedom Caucus sucks. Stuck everyone with a shyty law just because the new one wasn't exactly what they wanted.

F yeah!  Freedom cacus didnt think this law screwed over enough lazy losers!  That is the ticket to your success.  A worse law that screws over more poor and old people. 

It's almost like you trabagging fools do not realize that all americans want access to cheap and accesible healthcare.  Get a clue beavis.  

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