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Tillerson to blow off first NATO summit...

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6 minutes ago, CPslograd said:


West Germany had a legit military for one thing.  It's post unification where the Germans disarmed.

No one is talking about disarmament. The German Bundeswehr is a self-defense force. It's in the German constitution (which was co-written by the US). Every single deployment outside of Germany (humanitarian missions in the 90s and combat missions since the 2000s) are based on the interpretation that in modern times, Germany has to be defended outside its borders. But the fact remains that most Germans feel very strongly that Germany should play no role in wars abroad. 

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4 hours ago, jackmormon said:

The Germans allow U.S. military bases, tens of thousands of U.S. troops and U.S. nukes in their country. They also allow us to use them as a staging area for attacks all around the world. And have pledged to up their own military spending? I'd say they are pretty decent allies.

Who cares, has done us no good.   Having the Russians take over Europe wouldn't make a bit of difference to the United States.  They would still want our trade they would still need our goods.   All the treasure and loot we have spent on NATO is a waste of money that could have been used in America to help Americans.

We would be better off if we shut it all down.

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21 minutes ago, I am Ram said:

I'm not getting that part either. Please elaborate. 

It means CPSLO is whacking you with his cock in this debate.  Do not feel bad, he has worked me over in debates as well.  Hey all three of us hate Trump, so we actually have some common ground.  Right?

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7 hours ago, jackmormon said:

Who and why?

I think there's a lot of sentiment that many US citizens are tired of them using our defense as their muscle throughout the world, but never paying us anything for it.  I think the overall organization is kind of outdated.

Carry on, I was just making a comment offhand. 

Image result for jim mcmahon with lavell edwardsImage result for byu logoImage result for byu boise state end zone hail maryc07489bb8bb7f5bad3672877f8b04f34.jpg

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38 minutes ago, halfmanhalfbronco said:

It means CPSLO is whacking you with his cock in this debate.  Do not feel bad, he has worked me over in debates as well.  Hey all three of us hate Trump, so we actually have some common ground.  Right?

Nope, not right. I knew more about post-war Europe in 10th grade than CPslograd ever will. I know more about current Europe than CPslograd ever will. I grew up in Germany, I lost half my ancestor in WW2, and I have traveled to about every Western European country many times. I read various European newspapers every day, and I have friends and colleagues all over Europe. CPslograd, on the other hand, is struggling to spell the name of one of the world's top-five leaders correctly.

1 hour ago, CPslograd said:

Markell

Unlike CPslograd, I have read and understand the German Grundgesetz (post-war German's constitution) and know how Germans think and feel, which is how I know that the "krauts" (Joe's words) will never be the partner that Bush jr. and Trump desire. The rest of Europe isn't much simpler to grasp from an American perspective. That's pretty much all I have to say about this - you guys keep impressing each other and have fun with it. 

From an American perspective, I am disgusted that we seem so willing to embrace the idea of preparing for war against the Big Evil. I have zero interest in going to war against Islam or Russia or anyone else, especially not at the expense of diplomacy and basic human decency.

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4 minutes ago, I am Ram said:

Nope, not right. I knew more about post-war Europe in 10th grade than CPslograd ever will. I know more about current Europe than CPslograd ever will. I grew up in Germany, I lost half my ancestor in WW2, and I have traveled to about every Western European country many times. I read various European newspapers every day, and I have friends and colleagues all over Europe. CPslograd, on the other hand, is struggling to spell the name of one of the world's top-five leaders correctly.

Unlike CPslograd, I have read and understand the German Grundgesetz (post-war German's constitution) and know how Germans think and feel, which is how I know that the "krauts" (Joe's words) will never be the partner that Bush jr. and Trump desire. The rest of Europe isn't much simpler to grasp from an American perspective. That's pretty much all I have to say about this you guys keep impressing each other and have fun with it. 

From an American perspective, I am disgusted that we seem so willing to embrace the idea of preparing for war against the Big Evil. I have zero interest in going to war against Islam or Russia or anyone else, especially not at the expense of diplomacy and basic human decency.

Stating you have a European background means no more than some hick from Bama preaching to Europeans about 'Merica.  Lot of dumb as shit Europeans who know less about their countries than foreigners do.

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2 minutes ago, halfmanhalfbronco said:

Stating you have a European background means no more than some hick form Bama preaching to Europeans about 'Merica.

Your analogy would work if your hick from Bama had studied, worked, and built a life in Europe for close to 20 years. I'm not trying to be the most correctest rightest in this thread. But shit gets complex once you have more than one perspective. And shit is very, very complex when it comes to the transatlantic partnership. And pretty much everything said in this thread is bullshit. 

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12 hours ago, bluerules009 said:

If you think Germany spends enough then you wouldn't mind the U.S. reducing its spending to similar levels right?

If you re-read my post you might notice that I do NOT think Germany spends enough right now.

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12 hours ago, halfmanhalfbronco said:

A pittance for a country with the wealth of Germany.  Embarrassing, frankly.  

This is what we pay TO THE US as support for the bases in Germany. As far as I understand this roughly equals the yearly cost of the Ramstein Base. 

Our overall military spending, while also too low, is an entirely different figure.

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17 hours ago, halfmanhalfbronco said:

Alternative facts much?  Germany has been DECREASING their spending since 1991.  Only 5 countries meet the 2% requirment.  Where did you pull the 28 number from?

20170225_woc986_0.png

20170225_WOC985_0.png

I misread or mistyped cuz obviously there are only 28 memebers. You are right only 5 of the 28 are currently above 2% but according to an agreement we signed the other countries have till 2024 to get above the 2% mark and the countries have stated they are committed to do it. Will they? who knows but we can't demand and criticize them for not being there now if we have allowed them till 2024 to get there. I am all for encouraging these countries to get their spending up but not by threatening to pull out of the treaty especially since at this point they are still within the bounds of the agreement.

This was one of the articles I was referencing.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/mar/18/trump-merkel-nato-germany-owe-money-tweet

 

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10 hours ago, bluerules009 said:

Who cares, has done us no good.   Having the Russians take over Europe wouldn't make a bit of difference to the United States.  They would still want our trade they would still need our goods.   All the treasure and loot we have spent on NATO is a waste of money that could have been used in America to help Americans.

We would be better off if we shut it all down.

Of all the amazingly stupid posts I have seen from you, This is one more...

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3 hours ago, bluerules009 said:

Then it should be easy to explain to me why.

Because our allies in NATO, like us, are almost exclusively democratic, capitalist countries, who work with their neighbors to create economic partnerships for the common benefit of their friends.

Russia is a totalitarian, dictatorship. Putin is striving to restore Russia's might and domination of the region and regaining the lost soviet era territories, through military force if necessary. 

Our NATO allies all believe in a free press and political discourse. Putin's political opponents, and those critical of him in the press, more often than not, end up in prison or die from mysterious causes.

Our allies are Putin's enemies. Our enemies are Putin's allies.

 

 

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56 minutes ago, jackmormon said:

Because our allies in NATO, like us, are almost exclusively democratic, capitalist countries, who work with their neighbors to create economic partnerships for the common benefit of their friends.

Russia is a totalitarian, dictatorship. Putin is striving to restore Russia's might and domination of the region and regaining the lost soviet era territories, through military force if necessary. 

Our NATO allies all believe in a free press and political discourse. Putin's political opponents, and those critical of him in the press, more often than not, end up in prison or die from mysterious causes.

Our allies are Putin's enemies. Our enemies are Putin's allies.

 

 

Turkey is no more democratic than Russia.  And Greece is no more capitalist than Russia.

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16 hours ago, Hador said:

This is what we pay TO THE US as support for the bases in Germany. As far as I understand this roughly equals the yearly cost of the Ramstein Base. 

Our overall military spending, while also too low, is an entirely different figure.

Right.  And it can't really be much more than that or it starts to look like tribute, which isn't what we want.  I'd have to see how ROK and Japans numbers compare.  Regardless, the US economic boosts to the local economies from the bases probably exceed the one billion.  

Anyway, the West Germans (and now Germans) have been terrific partners over the decades and are a foundational part of the West.  We seem to have divergent interests at the present time, but hopefully they can be overcome.

I think the bigger question is whether the EU project can continue its ever increasing political and economic cohesion.  The EU as it stands now is completely dysfunctional.

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50 minutes ago, CPslograd said:

Turkey is no more democratic than Russia.  And Greece is no more capitalist than Russia.

al·most
ˈôlˌmōst/
adverb
  1. not quite; very nearly.
    "he almost knocked Georgina over"
    synonyms: nearly, (just) about, more or less, practicallyvirtually, all but, as good as, close to, near, not quite, roughly, not far from, for all intents and purposes; More
     
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