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Jackrabbit

The Fourth Branch of Govt

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We have created another branch of our govt.  Recent events are starting to show the push back on the new president that is so disliked among govt workers. One of the few things I like about Trump is that he seems to be determined to eliminate rules and bureaucracy but I am also skeptical he can or will.

This 4th branch of govt is not accountable to us.  The EPA, IRS, CIA FBI, military, Fed etc etc has shown directly that it will resist our inquiry.  The only way it will be brought under control is to have mass firings and to starve it of money.   

 

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1 hour ago, SharkTanked said:

"Deep State"... here we go... :wacko:

The phrase deep state conjures up conspiracy theory and laughter from some. But there is no denying that there are career government employees in all the agencies that actually make the country work. When you attack them or god forbid call their jobs into question or threaten their influence they will strike back. It's not a federal thing., The same is true in state and municipal government. The feds just have more power. 

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5 minutes ago, Rebelbacker said:

The phrase deep state conjures up conspiracy theory and laughter from some. But there is no denying that there are career government employees in all the agencies that actually make the country work. When you attack them or god forbid call their jobs into question or threaten their influence they will strike back. It's not a federal thing., The same is true in state and municipal government. The feds just have more power. 

Huh,,,,you mean folks like to keep their jobs? Who knew?

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people in DC keep plugging away without being in charge of implementing policy.  they're not intransigent partisan douches, they're just people who know how to do a job well.  it's not like every member of the dod, the ic, state, and everyone in between quits when the new party takes control.

there are directional changes and funding changes and furloughs and reshuffling to other work when new parties take office.  

the fact that we continue on functioning and providing defense, infrastructure, and government at the federal level despite 45 freaking changes of president since our inception without a single incident of civil war-like violence means that the quote unquote "deep state" IS A GOOD THING.  

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Trumpkins just like bureaucrats who do what they're told. 

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Planning is an exercise of power, and in a modern state much real power is suffused with boredom. The agents of planning are usually boring; the planning process is boring; the implementation of plans is always boring. In a democracy boredom works for bureaucracies and corporations as smell works for skunk. It keeps danger away. Power does not have to be exercised behind the scenes. It can be open. The audience is asleep. The modern world is forged amidst our inattention.

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2 hours ago, AndroidAggie said:

people in DC keep plugging away without being in charge of implementing policy.  they're not intransigent partisan douches, they're just people who know how to do a job well.  it's not like every member of the dod, the ic, state, and everyone in between quits when the new party takes control.

there are directional changes and funding changes and furloughs and reshuffling to other work when new parties take office.  

the fact that we continue on functioning and providing defense, infrastructure, and government at the federal level despite 45 freaking changes of president since our inception without a single incident of civil war-like violence means that the quote unquote "deep state" IS A GOOD THING.  

"Without being in charge of implementing policy"? Please. Look at the regulations put in place over the last 8 years. Many of those rules and regulations force people to spend more money to meet them. They are indirect taxes leveled on the public not voted on by Congress. These bureaucrats regulate almost every facet of how we live our lives but you say they have nothing to do with implementing policy?

 http://www.heritage.org/government-regulation/report/red-tape-rising-six-years-escalating-regulation-under-obama

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3 hours ago, jackmormon said:

The career worker bees are the people who keep cities, states and the federal government functioning, despite big mouthed politicians who have no idea what the +++++ they are doing.

HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA!

They are the ones that make sure it doesn't function.

Career doesn't work worthless do nothing overpaid apparatchiks  are the reason you can only help 40 women in a city of 100k doing at most 1/5 the job you should be doing.

They are the reason the federal government is about 1/10 as effective with a tax dollar as state government and 1/100 as effective as local government.  

This country will fall under the weight of government workers.  It is just a matter of time.

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15 hours ago, Rebelbacker said:

"Without being in charge of implementing policy"? Please. Look at the regulations put in place over the last 8 years. Many of those rules and regulations force people to spend more money to meet them. They are indirect taxes leveled on the public not voted on by Congress. These bureaucrats regulate almost every facet of how we live our lives but you say they have nothing to do with implementing policy?

 http://www.heritage.org/government-regulation/report/red-tape-rising-six-years-escalating-regulation-under-obama

The ones "in charge" of implementing policy are the appointees by new elected officials and the elected officials themselves. Grunts and middle management follow the vision and leadership set by those in power. They do it when their party is in power and when their party isn't in power.

I literally see this in my day to day work.

I'm not talking about riding regulation or increase in govt size. I'm debunking the myth of the deep state. There is no 4th branch of government like what is floating around in this thread, by recent media insinuation, and the like.

You set forth a workable talking point with a realistic goal in mind. Reducing government size and reach is a valid conservative aim. The deep state argument is without substance. It feels like a primeval myth that explains observed phenomena without any scientific inquiry.

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Blue, at the federal level, govt workers are a mixed bag some are worthless twats and others crush it. There is some if what you describe, but not at the level you're talking about.

Can't speak for Nevada municipalities like what you've dealt with.

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15 hours ago, Jackrabbit said:

We have created another branch of our govt.  Recent events are starting to show the push back on the new president that is so disliked among govt workers. One of the few things I like about Trump is that he seems to be determined to eliminate rules and bureaucracy but I am also skeptical he can or will.

This 4th branch of govt is not accountable to us.  The EPA, IRS, CIA FBI, military, Fed etc etc has shown directly that it will resist our inquiry.  The only way it will be brought under control is to have mass firings and to starve it of money.   

 

...No. We just have a powerful executive branch. 

It has its issues but a powerful bureaucracy is more or less a requirement for civilization. It is what set Rome and China apart from everyone else. It needs to be reined in but it isn't going to go away unless you'd prefer to live in what is effectively a pre-capitalist state. 

9 hours ago, Rebelbacker said:

"Without being in charge of implementing policy"? Please. Look at the regulations put in place over the last 8 years. Many of those rules and regulations force people to spend more money to meet them. They are indirect taxes leveled on the public not voted on by Congress. These bureaucrats regulate almost every facet of how we live our lives but you say they have nothing to do with implementing policy?

 http://www.heritage.org/government-regulation/report/red-tape-rising-six-years-escalating-regulation-under-obama

The "deep state" would be in reference to below policy level guys. Anyone who can set policy is appointed. 

Remember that every argument you have with someone on MWCboard is actually the continuation of a different argument they had with someone else also on MWCboard. 

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8 hours ago, AndroidAggie said:

Blue, at the federal level, govt workers are a mixed bag some are worthless twats and others crush it. There is some if what you describe, but not at the level you're talking about.

Can't speak for Nevada municipalities like what you've dealt with.

There are a few maybe 1 in a 1000 employees at the federal level that try to do a good job.  Almost always they are in really small departments where oversight from the worthless is limited.   Which only supports my point that we should just give paid leave to 99% of federal employees.   Since we can't fire the worthless we should just take them out of the equation.  I suspect you would get 1000% improvement in government functions

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On ‎3‎/‎10‎/‎2017 at 9:04 AM, happycamper said:

...No. We just have a powerful executive branch. 

It has its issues but a powerful bureaucracy is more or less a requirement for civilization. It is what set Rome and China apart from everyone else. It needs to be reined in but it isn't going to go away unless you'd prefer to live in what is effectively a pre-capitalist state. 

The "deep state" would be in reference to below policy level guys. Anyone who can set policy is appointed. 

Powerful?...our's is now making law on it's own.  Capitalism was here first.

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3 hours ago, Jackrabbit said:

Powerful?...our's is now making law on it's own. 

This country has never not had a bureaucracy and regulations.

3 hours ago, Jackrabbit said:

Capitalism was here first.

Actually feudalism was here first, followed in short order by mercantilism and communism.

But keep arguing with statements based on whether they feel good instead of whether they are true.

Remember that every argument you have with someone on MWCboard is actually the continuation of a different argument they had with someone else also on MWCboard. 

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16 minutes ago, happycamper said:

This country has never not had a bureaucracy and regulations.

Actually feudalism was here first, followed in short order by mercantilism and communism.

But keep arguing with statements based on whether they feel good instead of whether they are true.

Now there is 50+ supervisor's between the president and 90% of the federal employees.  That isn't anything you can compare to Rome or China or the United States  prior to FDR.

 

That's like saying to a welfare recipient you always had money a billion dollar lottery win doesn't change anything.

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11 hours ago, happycamper said:

This country has never not had a bureaucracy and regulations.

Actually feudalism was here first, followed in short order by mercantilism and communism.

But keep arguing with statements based on whether they feel good instead of whether they are true.

My OP was intended to be more about how much our own govt hates the prez, and what they are willing to do to discredit him.  His phone conversations with other world leaders have been in the press the next day...just one example.  Like him or not that kind of shit needs to stop.

Our govt, both political parties, the media and our own govt hate Trump to the core.  So much I am beginning to think this is a good thing.

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