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roughrider

OT-new Copa America thread-question

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Ok, wading through pages of your mama smack got old and I have a question for the more savvy soccer types;    I remember just 3 years ago that Mexico was trash.  US was clearly the better squad and now Mexico plays like they're a big step above the US to me.  Was this the coaching change mostly?  Or were they just young 3 years ago and their talent is now maturing? 

I was impressed with them against Uruguay who is really pretty good.  Not Argentina impressed but wishing the US would play at that level in this tournament.

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Just now, roughrider said:

Ok, wading through pages of your mama smack got old and I have a question for the more savvy soccer types;    I remember just 3 years ago that Mexico was trash.  US was clearly the better squad and now Mexico plays like they're a big step above the US to me.  Was this the coaching change mostly?  Or were they just young 3 years ago and their talent is now maturing? 

I was impressed with them against Uruguay who is really pretty good.  Not Argentina impressed but wishing the US would play at that level in this tournament.

It was a mixture of really bad coaching, some transitioning of El Tri from their so-called "golden generation" that was underachieving, to younger players, and just flat bad play on their part. 

Someone that follows them a little closer might have a better write-up than that, but it's what I recall. 

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3 minutes ago, roughrider said:

I remember just 3 years ago that Mexico was trash.  US was clearly the better squad and now Mexico plays like they're a big step above the US to me. 

You remember wrong.

US has never been the better squad.

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3 minutes ago, TheBigAwesome said:

You remember wrong.

US has never been the better squad.

They were 4-4-8 in leading up to the 2013 Gold Cup, and didn't make the finals. They improved rapidly after they fired de la Torre after the Gold Cup disappointment.

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3 minutes ago, retrofade said:

They were 4-4-8 in leading up to the 2013 Gold Cup, and didn't make the finals. They improved rapidly after they fired de la Torre after the Gold Cup disappointment.

What is that 4-4-8? The head-to-head between the US and Mexico?

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Just now, TheBigAwesome said:

What is that 4-4-8? The head-to-head between the US and Mexico?

4-4-8 against all opponents leading up to the Gold Cup. We were 1-0-1 against them in 2013. We're 1-1-1 against them since then.

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We shouldn't forget that Mexico won the Gold Medal at the London Olympics so they certainly had a lot of young talent. I think that coincides with the coaching change and things have taken off for them. They were my pick to win this tournament and I'm not backing off of that. 

I can't sing and I can't dance but I can make romance - Macho Man Randy Savage

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2 minutes ago, retrofade said:

4-4-8 against all opponents leading up to the Gold Cup. We were 1-0-1 against them in 2013. We're 1-1-1 against them since then.

Okay.

To me, it's a matter of "styles make fights" (to use a boxing analogy) and as you mentioned, a swapping out of the "old guard" and "new guard" for Mexico. The new guys were young and inexperienced and the old guys were, well, old. And the two groups didn't have good chemistry between them so they played accordingly.

But as far as pure talent, Mexico has always been far more talented than any US squad. The relative success of the US was more a matter of good timing and a good style match-up than anything.

 

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42 minutes ago, retrofade said:

It was a mixture of really bad coaching, some transitioning of El Tri from their so-called "golden generation" that was underachieving, to younger players, and just flat bad play on their part. 

Someone that follows them a little closer might have a better write-up than that, but it's what I recall. 

Makes sense.  I'm trying to equate their rise, which is significant,  to the US situation with Klinsmann in charge and still playing the old guard that was never as good as the old for Mexico.  Just seems like the US is so far from taking that next step.    I'd like to think a new coach that does bring something new to the table, and the desire to change to the younger guard right now could get them there but we've never been there and Mexico had been there before.

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25 minutes ago, just_chris said:

We shouldn't forget that Mexico won the Gold Medal at the London Olympics so they certainly had a lot of young talent. I think that coincides with the coaching change and things have taken off for them. They were my pick to win this tournament and I'm not backing off of that. 

Smart man.  But after watching Argentina last night, with Messi sitting, I'm on that bandwagon. 

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42 minutes ago, retrofade said:

They were 4-4-8 in leading up to the 2013 Gold Cup, and didn't make the finals. They improved rapidly after they fired de la Torre after the Gold Cup disappointment.

That's the key right there for the US;  actually acting on disappointment and making a change.  We tanked in the Gold Cup too, and missed the Federation Cup in Russia too, and.....  The US federation seems more than willing to see no progress.  

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2 minutes ago, roughrider said:

That's the key right there for the US;  actually acting on disappointment and making a change.  We tanked in the Gold Cup too, and missed the Federation Cup in Russia too, and.....  The US federation seems more than willing to see no progress.  

It is no disgrace to miss the Federation Cup.  You pretty much have to be the best team in CONCACAF to get there.  The US isn't the best team.

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1 minute ago, masterfrog said:

It is no disgrace to miss the Federation Cup.  You pretty much have to be the best team in CONCACAF to get there.  The US isn't the best team.

Speaks to my point about expectations.  We were close for a while but the gap is widening every day it seems like.  The US has had more than enough time to be the best in a weak division like Concacaf.  That is if was ever going to get there.

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45 minutes ago, just_chris said:

We shouldn't forget that Mexico won the Gold Medal at the London Olympics so they certainly had a lot of young talent.

Exactly, they weren't "trash" as the OP remembers and were certainly a better squad than the US. The talent was there, they just had some growing pains and the US is a bad match-up for them.

This was evidenced by the fact that the US team would play competitive against Mexico (maybe even win) but then would get blasted by Argentina or Brazil but Mexico would go out and play well against Argentina and Brazil and even win.

Everyone was too quick to crown the USMNT as having arrived when really it had just taken the first step. It's so very American to want it all and want it now but these things take time. It looks like the USMNT may have to take a step back here before it can take another step forward. But that's part of it.

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These things tend to be cyclical. 4 years ago the US was struggling to make the hex, we missed the Confederations Cup, and Mexico had just won the Olympics, U-17 World Cup ,and was a semifinalist in the U20's while we failed to qualify for 2 of those and did awful in the other. Fast forward a year later and we're saving Mexico from World Cup Elimination.

 

Mexico has always had the deeper and more talented player pool, but when it comes to best XI's it's always been fairly close and we've always been a tough matchup. At the moment Mexico is going through a bit of a golden generation, while we have  a lot of really talented young players waiting to bust through the pipeline. We're in this weird transition phase where the old guys are getting too old, but the young guys are still just a little too green. 

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7 minutes ago, TheBigAwesome said:

 

This was evidenced by the fact that the US team would play competitive against Mexico (maybe even win) but then would get blasted by Argentina or Brazil but Mexico would go out and play well against Argentina and Brazil and even win.

 

When did Mexico blast Brazil or Argentina in competitive matches? In their awful 2013 they crashed out in the World Cup and lost numerous competitive matches in qualifying

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11 minutes ago, sebasour said:

 

When did Mexico blast Brazil or Argentina in competitive matches? In their awful 2013 they crashed out in the World Cup and lost numerous competitive matches in qualifying

I didn't say Mexico blasted anyone. I said that I remember Mexico playing Brazil and/or Argentina well, they certainly weren't out-classed. And many back then thought/were saying that the US would have a chance against the better South American teams (Brazil/Argentina) because the US had just beaten Mexico and Mexico played Brazil/Argentina almost straight up but then the US got blasted by one of the South American teams.

I remember thinking that was bullshit because I knew that the US just matches up well against Mexico and that they were going to get exposed. And they were. The US was never as good as some people remember/wanted them to have been.

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18 minutes ago, TheBigAwesome said:

Exactly, they weren't "trash" as the OP remembers and were certainly a better squad than the US. The talent was there, they just had some growing pains and the US is a bad match-up for them.

This was evidenced by the fact that the US team would play competitive against Mexico (maybe even win) but then would get blasted by Argentina or Brazil but Mexico would go out and play well against Argentina and Brazil and even win.

Everyone was too quick to crown the USMNT as having arrived when really it had just taken the first step. It's so very American to want it all and want it now but these things take time. It looks like the USMNT may have to take a step back here before it can take another step forward. But that's part of it.

I think we've taken a step back, but we're getting ready to take 2-3 steps forward.

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2 minutes ago, retrofade said:

I think we've taken a step back, but we're getting ready to take 2-3 steps forward.

Probably.

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