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roswellcoug

Get the 1%'ers to pay for free public college, student loan forgiveness

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15 minutes ago, Aslowhiteguy said:

The world is in greater need of skilled labor than it is for some college majors.  

I would rather my tax dollars go to train a diesel mechanic than a future sociologist.

 

If the taxpayer is paying for it, there are far more stringent entry requirements. That's how "student's paradise" Europe does it. Another reason why I don't like it. 

Remember that every argument you have with someone on MWCboard is actually the continuation of a different argument they had with someone else also on MWCboard. 

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2 minutes ago, Billings said:

Sure but the answer cannot be you are poor so go be a truck mechanic if you can't afford college.

 

If we are going to subsidize education, it makes more sense to pay for education/training for occupations that best serve society.  

I can think of many instances where I or someone I know was in need of someone with labor skills.  I have never personally seen the need for the services of a sociologist. 

"Don't underestimate Joe Biden's ability to F@*k things up."

Barack Obama

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Just now, Aslowhiteguy said:

 

If we are going to subsidize education, it makes more sense to pay for education/training for occupations that best serve society.  

I can think of many instances where I or someone I know was in need of someone with labor skills.  I have never personally seen the need for the services of a sociologist. 

I don't know why you're hammering on sociologists here, it's strange. Is it your reaction to liberal arts in general? I think cutting liberal arts because they sound foofy is a great way to start treating every citizen like a robot economic production unit that degrades the economy and democracy. I have zero problem with technical education especially as it's paired today with more liberal arts stuff. I do have a problem with people looking at cutting education and saying "well engineers don't need philosophy or english or any of these foof classes, same with chemists and business majors...". That's European style education and that simply does not train kids to think. 

Remember that every argument you have with someone on MWCboard is actually the continuation of a different argument they had with someone else also on MWCboard. 

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1 minute ago, happycamper said:

I don't know why you're hammering on sociologists here, it's strange. Is it your reaction to liberal arts in general? I think cutting liberal arts because they sound foofy is a great way to start treating every citizen like a robot economic production unit that degrades the economy and democracy. I have zero problem with technical education especially as it's paired today with more liberal arts stuff. I do have a problem with people looking at cutting education and saying "well engineers don't need philosophy or english or any of these foof classes, same with chemists and business majors...". That's European style education and that simply does not train kids to think. 

I'm just using it as an example.   I could have used any number of majors that have less practical value than learning to be a plumber. 

 

 

 

"Don't underestimate Joe Biden's ability to F@*k things up."

Barack Obama

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22 minutes ago, happycamper said:

I don't know why you're hammering on sociologists here, it's strange. Is it your reaction to liberal arts in general? I think cutting liberal arts because they sound foofy is a great way to start treating every citizen like a robot economic production unit that degrades the economy and democracy. I have zero problem with technical education especially as it's paired today with more liberal arts stuff. I do have a problem with people looking at cutting education and saying "well engineers don't need philosophy or english or any of these foof classes, same with chemists and business majors...". That's European style education and that simply does not train kids to think. 

Personally, the inability to think in a European or Asian educational system is way overblown and is the go to argument for defenders of our educational system. Chinese and Russian hackers show plenty of independent and strategic thought. All the Asian countries show plenty of innovation and adaptability. I think the value of a liberal arts education is great but I don't want to subsidize someone's Intro to Women's studies course. I would rather subsidize vocational education at the community college level. Rubio is right, the world needs more welders (and fracking specialists or nurse practitioners) than philosophers. Liberal arts studies is a luxury and should be payed for by the student not by the 1 percenters.

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4 hours ago, happycamper said:

It's not all that hard to come up for an argument for her.

"Free tertiary education is an investment in our future that will make America stronger. It is needed for future jobs and economic growth. The cost today will be high but the cost of not doing it is far greater. The one percent make their fortunes off of skilled laborers and the products they consume so they're even getting their investment back." 

I don't agree because the particulars don't add up and IMO creating a "free" tertiary system would ruin our best-in-the-world tertiary education; but that's the worst part of it. We here could make a better argument for her than she did. It was like watching Mayweather beat up on, well, me. If you think I'm stupid then it would be somewhat entertaining but in the end the result was never in question and would leave you feeling unsatisfied. 

When I say argument, I am talking about one that makes fiscal sense. I'd love free college and trade education. But there is that little stumbling block about who pays for it.  

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2 minutes ago, NMpackalum said:

Personally, the inability to think in a European or Asian educational system is way overblown and is the go to argument for defenders of our educational system. Chinese and Russian hackers show plenty of independent and strategic thought. All the Asian countries show plenty of innovation and adaptability. I think the value of a liberal arts education is great but I don't want to subsidize someone's Intro to Women's studies course. I would rather subsidize vocational education at the community college level. Rubio is right, the world needs more welders (and fracking specialists or nurse practitioners) than philosophers. Liberal arts studies is a luxury and should be payed for by the student not by the 1 percenters.

Rubio's wrong on the welders/philosophers thing. Philosophy teaches you how to think. That is the sole skill you can't automate. Philosophers are far more flexible than fracking specialists - which, if you are one, you're boned for the nonce. For that matter, nurse practitioners have doctorates. Not sure how they get lumped in with welders and fracking specialists. Finally, you realize that "liberal arts" is mathematics, language, and the sciences, right? The way people are talking college should be a economic assembly line. It sounds good and ends in a travesty. The difference between a university engineer and a tech school guy is that upon starting the tech school guy is profitable while the engineer isn't and in 5 years the engineer can run whatever project they have and the tech guy is exactly where he started. Thinking critically is the single most important skill people have and a liberal arts education - maybe not necessarily major, but including it in the curricula - is the single best way we have to teach people how to think. 

And all of those Asian nations showing innovation educate their best and brightest here.

 

1 minute ago, Rebelbacker said:

When I say argument, I am talking about one that makes fiscal sense. I'd love free college and trade education. But there is that little stumbling block about who pays for it.  

Yeah and what measures you're willing to take to make it happen. You could gut the education system and make it cheap enough to pay for or shunt half the students who will most likely never graduate away from ever enrolling... but that's rather, ah, totalitarian in my view. 

Remember that every argument you have with someone on MWCboard is actually the continuation of a different argument they had with someone else also on MWCboard. 

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18 hours ago, smltwnrckr said:

To be fair, going to a university is not the same as going to a trade school.  The point is not to sit around and learn things that are only applicable to the modern workplace or modern world.  I was an English major and read Chaucer in Middle English.  It was important for me to do that, but not because I'm ever going to need to know Middle English in the real world. 

Right, the curriculum reqd you to learn middle English so you could train to learn critically thinking andnot just to know stuff.   But when educators teach to shun different ideas and solutions, it grows students like those idiots in the news.

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1 hour ago, happycamper said:

Rubio's wrong on the welders/philosophers thing. Philosophy teaches you how to think. That is the sole skill you can't automate. Philosophers are far more flexible than fracking specialists - which, if you are one, you're boned for the nonce. For that matter, nurse practitioners have doctorates. Not sure how they get lumped in with welders and fracking specialists. Finally, you realize that "liberal arts" is mathematics, language, and the sciences, right? The way people are talking college should be a economic assembly line. It sounds good and ends in a travesty. The difference between a university engineer and a tech school guy is that upon starting the tech school guy is profitable while the engineer isn't and in 5 years the engineer can run whatever project they have and the tech guy is exactly where he started. Thinking critically is the single most important skill people have and a liberal arts education - maybe not necessarily major, but including it in the curricula - is the single best way we have to teach people how to think. 

And all of those Asian nations showing innovation educate their best and brightest here.

 

Yeah and what measures you're willing to take to make it happen. You could gut the education system and make it cheap enough to pay for or shunt half the students who will most likely never graduate away from ever enrolling... but that's rather, ah, totalitarian in my view. 

We then have to define liberal arts then, Science and Math I would consider a STEM curricula and I would support that. Best and Brightest of China, probably but I would bet their 10 percentile student in their home grown universities are pretty bright as well since they restrict who goes to college. As far as philosophy courses, I think you give them too much credit. I took a few in college and I can't say it influenced how I think. I just lumped fracking specialists and nurse practitioners as vocations that are or will be in demand. Ultimately, students need to know that their parents were wrong and you can't be anything you want to be unless you want to live in their basement. It's a competitive world out there and you need to pick a major in college or vocational school where you can get a job.

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15 minutes ago, NMpackalum said:

We then have to define liberal arts then, Science and Math I would consider a STEM curricula and I would support that. Best and Brightest of China, probably but I would bet their 10 percentile student in their home grown universities are pretty bright as well since they restrict who goes to college. As far as philosophy courses, I think you give them too much credit. I took a few in college and I can't say it influenced how I think. I just lumped fracking specialists and nurse practitioners as vocations that are or will be in demand. Ultimately, students need to know that their parents were wrong and you can't be anything you want to be unless you want to live in their basement. It's a competitive world out there and you need to pick a major in college or vocational school where you can get a job.

Maybe we went to different places. At GU you were required to take 4 philosophy classes as the bare minimum to graduate and they have greatly informed my thinking process and how I evaluate what I know. Furthermore, philosophy majors tend to make a hell of a lot more than welding school graduates. The "liberal arts" stigma when it comes to reforming schools misses three extremely important things:

1. The debt crisis is brought on more by for-profit universities than anything

2. students that actually graduate aren't the problem

3. Just because medieval English may not be a lucrative career doesn't mean that at least a basic literature class (or, broadly, a liberal arts core curriculum) shouldn't be taken by every student. The liberal arts were originally conceived as what you needed to know to be a complete person. An engineer, or welder, or nurse practitioner who can only do those things are not very good citizens. 

Remember that every argument you have with someone on MWCboard is actually the continuation of a different argument they had with someone else also on MWCboard. 

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22 minutes ago, happycamper said:

Maybe we went to different places. At GU you were required to take 4 philosophy classes as the bare minimum to graduate and they have greatly informed my thinking process and how I evaluate what I know. Furthermore, philosophy majors tend to make a hell of a lot more than welding school graduates. The "liberal arts" stigma when it comes to reforming schools misses three extremely important things:

1. The debt crisis is brought on more by for-profit universities than anything

2. students that actually graduate aren't the problem

3. Just because medieval English may not be a lucrative career doesn't mean that at least a basic literature class (or, broadly, a liberal arts core curriculum) shouldn't be taken by every student. The liberal arts were originally conceived as what you needed to know to be a complete person. An engineer, or welder, or nurse practitioner who can only do those things are not very good citizens. 

Idk I know a guy with a BA in philosophy and an MFA in film and he could only get a job as a comment moderator for huffpo. He makes like 9 bucks an hour. A welder makes from 20-30 per hour

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1 hour ago, Jackrabbit said:

Right, the curriculum reqd you to learn middle English so you could train to learn critically thinking andnot just to know stuff.   But when educators teach to shun different ideas and solutions, it grows students like those idiots in the news.

It's not the educators in the classroom who are shunning different ideas and solutions, or at least any more than has ever been the case in the university system.  It's the growing administrative bureaucracy that is catering to, and empowering, these little monsters.  Trust me, the hardcore liberal professors at these institutions (in general) are alarmed by this as well.

Planning is an exercise of power, and in a modern state much real power is suffused with boredom. The agents of planning are usually boring; the planning process is boring; the implementation of plans is always boring. In a democracy boredom works for bureaucracies and corporations as smell works for skunk. It keeps danger away. Power does not have to be exercised behind the scenes. It can be open. The audience is asleep. The modern world is forged amidst our inattention.

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51 minutes ago, smltwnrckr said:

It's not the educators in the classroom who are shunning different ideas and solutions, or at least any more than has ever been the case in the university system.  It's the growing administrative bureaucracy that is catering to, and empowering, these little monsters.  Trust me, the hardcore liberal professors at these institutions (in general) are alarmed by this as well.

Not sure how you can separate admin from some teachers...as I said schools are reaping what they sow.  I hope those scared teachers realize their blunder.   Yes, there are liberal arts teachers who tell students not to watch Fox News.

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2 minutes ago, Jackrabbit said:

Not sure how you can separate admin from some teachers...as I said schools are reaping what they sow.  I hope those scared teachers realize their blunder.   Yes, there are liberal arts teachers who tell students not to watch Fox News.

They roll their eyes at each other the same way engineering and accounting does. 

Remember that every argument you have with someone on MWCboard is actually the continuation of a different argument they had with someone else also on MWCboard. 

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57 minutes ago, Jackrabbit said:

Not sure how you can separate admin from some teachers...as I said schools are reaping what they sow.  I hope those scared teachers realize their blunder.   Yes, there are liberal arts teachers who tell students not to watch Fox News.

Say that to a teacher, and he or she will punch you in the eye.  

And as a former journalist who leans heavily libertarian (ie conservative on many issues), I tell people not to watch Fox News all the time. It's generally bad journalism.

Edit: Also, instructors at any university are well aware where the growth in the budget has been for the last decade.  It has not been in tenured professorships.  There is a very deep (rightfully so) division between admin and faculty at universities.  Interestingly enough, 25 years ago most departments were administered by faculty committees filled by rotating seats.  That means the faculty used to be the administrators. Not anymore, in most cases. That separation has contributed to the problem these schools face today.  It's not just "liberalism."  Universities should, by nature, be more liberal than the rest of society.  They're full of idealistic young people.  That's not why there's been a sudden change in freedom of speech on campus.

Planning is an exercise of power, and in a modern state much real power is suffused with boredom. The agents of planning are usually boring; the planning process is boring; the implementation of plans is always boring. In a democracy boredom works for bureaucracies and corporations as smell works for skunk. It keeps danger away. Power does not have to be exercised behind the scenes. It can be open. The audience is asleep. The modern world is forged amidst our inattention.

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1 hour ago, smltwnrckr said:

Say that to a teacher, and he or she will punch you in the eye.  

And as a former journalist who leans heavily libertarian (ie conservative on many issues), I tell people not to watch Fox News all the time . It's generally bad journalism.

Edit: Also, instructors at any university are well aware where the growth in the budget has been for the last decade.  It has not been in tenured professorships.  There is a very deep (rightfully so) division between admin and faculty at universities.  Interestingly enough, 25 years ago most departments were administered by faculty committees filled by rotating seats.  That means the faculty used to be the administrators. Not anymore, in most cases. That separation has contributed to the problem these schools face today.  It's not just "liberalism."  Universities should, by nature, be more liberal than the rest of society.  They're full of idealistic young people.  That's not why there's been a sudden change in freedom of speech on campus.

You must be one of those that fear different viewpoints....this post is just plain dumb.

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Just now, Jackrabbit said:

You must be one of those that fear different viewpoints....this post is just plain dumb.

LOL, ok dude.  

Planning is an exercise of power, and in a modern state much real power is suffused with boredom. The agents of planning are usually boring; the planning process is boring; the implementation of plans is always boring. In a democracy boredom works for bureaucracies and corporations as smell works for skunk. It keeps danger away. Power does not have to be exercised behind the scenes. It can be open. The audience is asleep. The modern world is forged amidst our inattention.

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3 hours ago, happycamper said:

Maybe we went to different places. At GU you were required to take 4 philosophy classes as the bare minimum to graduate and they have greatly informed my thinking process and how I evaluate what I know. Furthermore, philosophy majors tend to make a hell of a lot more than welding school graduates. The "liberal arts" stigma when it comes to reforming schools misses three extremely important things:

1. The debt crisis is brought on more by for-profit universities than anything

2. students that actually graduate aren't the problem

3. Just because medieval English may not be a lucrative career doesn't mean that at least a basic literature class (or, broadly, a liberal arts core curriculum) shouldn't be taken by every student. The liberal arts were originally conceived as what you needed to know to be a complete person. An engineer, or welder, or nurse practitioner who can only do those things are not very good citizens. 

I agree with points 1 and 2 but you've insulted the vast majority of people who don't have the priviledge of attending any college much less a liberal arts school who I think are good citizens. I subscribe to the theory that the vast majority of what makes a person you learn in Kindergarten if not grade school. I would probably bet that I would not particularly care for the gal in that interview at any age or educational environment.

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4 hours ago, Jackrabbit said:

Not sure how you can separate admin from some teachers...as I said schools are reaping what they sow.  I hope those scared teachers realize their blunder.   Yes, there are liberal arts teachers who tell students not to watch Fox News.

Do you watch Fox News? I do, but only to be entertained.

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On November 12, 2015 at 3:10:26 PM, Rebelbacker said:

She did that all on her own. Cavuto just asked questions. He didn't raise his voice, argue, or intimidate her. He gave her plenty of time to get out her points and let her embarrass herself with her own words. 

 

It's amazing that Faux news would schedule a guest that with little to no credentials or experience to argue a point that they disagree with, so that entire notion can be ridiculed.

Just kidding. They do that all the time.

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